What in the World?! Who Made This 5-key Flute?!

ImNotIrish · Post by **ImNotIrish** » Mon Jul 14, 2008 11:49 am

Pads might be a good alternative to electrical tape, eh?
Arbo

Cathy Wilde · Post by **Cathy Wilde** » Mon Jul 14, 2008 11:49 am

What? No hose clamps????

jemtheflute · Post by **jemtheflute** » Mon Jul 14, 2008 12:36 pm

Hummmmmm..... Generally from those photos one would be inclined to opine that it was an antique - the state and style of the metalwork in particular and the fact it is clearly German Silver - yet the Pratten style body and tone-holes plus the dummy-type long foot still say "modern" to me. Save that we can now see the footjoint ferrules are indeed all matching, in the absence of any markings I don't think we're much further on! Are the head and barrel liners seamed or extruded? Are there any marks on the undersides of any of the keys, I wonder? Even allowing for neglect and abuse, it sure doesn't look like it is under 25 years old! Could the foot be a replacement tube using the original fittings, I wonder, but ditching the C#/C key-work? is there any discrepancy in the timber seen in daylight that might suggest that as a possibility?

I will stick my neck out a bit here and say that, based on appearances, I expect that flute to fix up to be a very decent player!

Suzie · Post by **Suzie** » Mon Jul 14, 2008 1:13 pm

Unfortunately I have absolutely no experience with removing block-mounted keys which, in this case, is in my advantage as I don't have 14mm clarinet pads to stick on the flute! I'm going to rethread the tenons (and crown!) and fix the crack and stick 'er on eBay later tonight I think. Thanks for all the input!

jemtheflute · Post by **jemtheflute** » Mon Jul 14, 2008 1:34 pm

Suzie, if you're doing that much to it, go the whole hog! You'll optimise your return on selling it if you do, and get some idea of how it plays. Getting (and fitting) clarinet pads is easy, and so is removing block-mounted keys. If there are no hooks protruding on the ends of the pivot pins (as appears to be the case) to grasp in pliers, you just need some kind of pusher tool - you can improvise one with a paperclip or soldering wire if you haven't a proper one - that will fit into the holes in the blocks without stressing them or getting stuck, but without being too thin and risking jamming in alongside the pin instead of pushing it out. Hold your pusher in a pair of pliers quite close to the block and, with the joint safely and firmly supported, just push the pin through with the pusher until enough protrudes the other side to grasp with you pliers and withdraw. Just be very careful to maintain alignment while doing so in order not to risk splitting off the top of the block. It is all a darn sight easier than rod axles etc! Go for it!

Post by **Nanohedron** » Mon Jul 14, 2008 2:18 pm

Denny wrote:It* does not look anything like the Dave Williams flute that Nano used to have....

...and Denny should know. The Williams flutes I've encountered were pin-mounted. If he ever made block-mounted flutes, I'm unaware of it. But anything's possible, I imagine.

My opinion as to the provenance of Suzie's flute is on record and unswerving. Playability may turn out to be a happy bonus, but, Suzie dear, you don't seem so keen on really playing the thing, and I think rather than returning it to eBay, one should hang it on the wall as a quaint curio that suggests "flute". Seriously. We're always going on about sellers of bad instruments, so shouldn't the buck stop here?

*Edited to insert an escaped "T".

jemtheflute · Post by **jemtheflute** » Mon Jul 14, 2008 2:34 pm

Nanohedron wrote:
Denny wrote:It* does not look anything like the Dave Williams flute that Nano used to have....
...and Denny should know. The Williams flutes I've encountered were pin-mounted. If he ever made block-mounted flutes, I'm unaware of it. But anything's possible, I imagine.

I have only met one Dave Williams flute that I am aware of - a 4-key belonging to Ceri Rhys Matthews (very nice it is too, if short of keys for my taste) and that has block-mounted keys, but silver fittings. I can't offhand think of modern makers who have made German Silver keys - silver or brass, yes, but not GS.

Suzie · Post by **Suzie** » Mon Jul 14, 2008 2:36 pm

Nanohedron: Unfortunately I'm not sure what you were trying to say in your post however I generally don't sell anything that I'd consider to be 'bad' and if, in the event, I happen to do so I'll sell whatever it is starting at a penny and just run it. Generally I tend to do that with most of my auctions anyhow as I feel it's more fair for the buyers to determine the price they're willing to pay for whatever the item may be.

The following end of your previous ranting confused me:

My opinion as to the provenance of Suzie's flute is on record and unswerving. Playability may turn out to be a happy bonus, but, Suzie dear, you don't seem so keen on really playing the thing, and I think rather than returning it to eBay, one should hang it on the wall as a quaint curio that suggests "flute". Seriously. We're always going on about sellers of bad instruments, so shouldn't the buck stop here?

Pardon my ignorance in the simple-system/irish flute category but I have never tried in ANY sense to mislead anyone into thinking anything about anything! I put in my 2¢ where I can here and there (especially if I think it may be helpful, etc.) however I have not EVER claimed to be a master of irish flute nor anything of the sort nor related to such.

Post by **Nanohedron** » Mon Jul 14, 2008 2:43 pm

Very informative, Jem, thanks. To add to the mishmash, the Williams flute Denny mentions indeed has nickel (or German, as you like) silver keywork and rings. Because of damage it was reheaded/barrellled by Pat Olwell, and the replacement metalwork is sterling. Pat was unwilling to reuse the original nickel silver; I was thinking of restoration, and he wanted there to be no question of whose replacement work it was. Who am I to dispute that? One of the better Frankenflutes out there, if I may say so. But, to reiterate, the original metalwork was, and remains, nickel silver.

And the Pakistani makers still use nickel silver too. Sometimes they plate it with a chrome-like stuff.

Suzie, you gotta do what you gotta do. If what you don't like to hear qualifies as a "rant", I can't help you there.

Aanvil · Post by **Aanvil** » Mon Jul 14, 2008 11:12 pm

You know Nano... I kinda read your posts as a little harsh sounding.

I've done business with Suzie and she as straight up as any could wish for.

As she has stated she is new to simple system flutes and to ITM in general.

She came here for help.

I think we ought to show her a little more kindness.

JMHO

Post by **Nanohedron** » Wed Jul 16, 2008 3:56 pm

Sorry about that. My apologies for being harsh. It's just frustrating to me, what with the sticky warning about Pakistani flutes, and the idea that our own members are putting 'em back out there anyway. But, if it's all up-front, no harm done, I suppose.

I wasn't being sarcastic about the wall ornament idea: it was something I did with my own Pakistani flute in a montage with some other retired/unplayable instruments. Looks way cool.

Suzie · Post by **Suzie** » Wed Jul 16, 2008 5:21 pm

FWIW I've seen many antique flutes of both French, English and German origin. I'm almost 100% certain that this flute is not of Pakistani origin due to the amount of craftsmanship involved in this particular flute. As was evident in my recent photos of the flute, the footjoint does have 2 rings (one on each end) and apparently the prior photos had a piece of electrical tape holding the footjoint onto the body (surprise!). The crown is what I'm ASSUMING you guys were referring to when you said something about 'dome-shaped endcap' and it was quite easy to remove I might add. With the Pakistani flute that one of you had seen (Nano, I think it was), did it have block-mounted keys, pratten-style holes (big A and big E), nickel-silver/German-silver keys and use of a decent stock of wood? This flute is either ebony or grenadilla and I've noticed that all of the Pakistani flutes I've EVER seen had horrible wood 'choices' that they used. I suppose Jem will tell us for certain if he figures it out!

Jon C. · Post by **Jon C.** » Wed Jul 16, 2008 11:52 pm

Suzie wrote:FWIW I've seen many antique flutes of both French, English and German origin. I'm almost 100% certain that this flute is not of Pakistani origin due to the amount of craftsmanship involved in this particular flute. As was evident in my recent photos of the flute, the footjoint does have 2 rings (one on each end) and apparently the prior photos had a piece of electrical tape holding the footjoint onto the body (surprise!). The crown is what I'm ASSUMING you guys were referring to when you said something about 'dome-shaped endcap' and it was quite easy to remove I might add. With the Pakistani flute that one of you had seen (Nano, I think it was), did it have block-mounted keys, pratten-style holes (big A and big E), nickel-silver/German-silver keys and use of a decent stock of wood? This flute is either ebony or grenadilla and I've noticed that all of the Pakistani flutes I've EVER seen had horrible wood 'choices' that they used. I suppose Jem will tell us for certain if he figures it out!

Interesting flute, have you got it to play yet? The keys look older then a Pakistani flute to me.

Post by **Nanohedron** » Thu Jul 17, 2008 10:31 am

Suzie wrote:The crown is what I'm ASSUMING you guys were referring to when you said something about 'dome-shaped endcap' and it was quite easy to remove I might add.

Difficult to remove in that the domish shape by its structure offers less purchase for the fingers to grip onto. The more snug its fit, the more difficulty. Simple ergonomics.

Suzie wrote:With the Pakistani flute that one of you had seen (Nano, I think it was), did it have block-mounted keys, pratten-style holes (big A and big E), nickel-silver/German-silver keys and use of a decent stock of wood?

Yes, yes, yes, and yes. And if you'll re-read, I didn't merely see one, I OWNED one such exactly like it, and so knew it intimately (no smart remarks, Denny). Exact and down to the brass sleeve-and-lining. This is a Pakistani flute. No question in my mind at all.

BTW, this has nothing at all to do with ITM or playing expertise. No one's pulling those cards, here. This is just about a particular make of flute that I happen to know something about.

Denny · Post by **Denny** » Thu Jul 17, 2008 11:11 am

okay