Classical vs Irish embouchure

BillG · Post by **BillG** » Mon Sep 02, 2002 6:29 am

i've been reading post about the difference that exists between the two subj type embouchures but no one has clearly defined what that dfference is. About ten months ago I switched over from classical style flute (Armstrong silver French) to keyless D and am self-taught, at present, on the Irish. Perhaps I'm still on the old "classical" embouchure, whatever that is.

SO - what is the difference? I ask knowing mileage will vary!

BillG

CraigMc · Post by **CraigMc** » Mon Sep 02, 2002 11:40 am

I was taught by someone who plays with a classical style embouchure and was unsuccessful using this style to get my Wooden flute to sound the way I wanted to and consistantly. After asking around and talking with others including Skip Healy I learned that a classical embouchure is softer, where the corners of the mouth are pulled down into a pout, and the hole between the lips is sometimes rounder and more open. An Irish style embouchure is as tight as you can go pulling the lips tight across your teeth rather than down. The tighter you can go and the more focused the airstream the more reedy the sound. This is the sound that appealed to me and made me pick the irish flute above all other instruments. Irish flute is capable of a wide range of expression from being soft and light to being reedy and gritty sounding. You can hear this sound from Players like John Skelton, Seamus Tansey, Barry Kerr and others. I think those who have experience with the classical style can adapt their style to the wooden (irish) flute. Since my first instrument was the Irish flute...this style just seemed to frustrate me until I learned the difference and began using a more Irish embouchure. There are several folks here that come from a classical background and I'm sure they can chime in as well.

- Craig

CraigMc · Post by **CraigMc** » Tue Sep 03, 2002 11:28 am

Here is a quote I found especially helpful in this. Actually this quote helped save me from dropping the flute completely as the way I was being taught (classical embouchure) was making it impossible to play.

The way I was being taught was to focus on how the embouchure looked, after decades of playing the classical flute my instructor could drop the corners of his mouth practically down to his chin. My face is different and I can't even get the corners of my mouth to turn down. I was asked to do allot of practice in the mirror. After a while I even started blaming my Olwell bamboo flute. After I received my 3 piece dixon and reading this post as well as talking to others I ignored what I was taught and just focused on the sound and the airstream. After a year I am much more consistant and feel I have decent tone. Recently I dug out my long since discarded Olwell bamboo and it played beautifully.

- Craig

ChrisLaughlin
Posted: 2001-10-31 10:43
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I posted most of this in response to a question about the Mad for Trad tutor. Afterwards I realized that it might be helpful to a lot of people and so I decided to repost it here. I know it would have been helpful to me four years ago. Let me know what you think, and feel free to add your suggested listening, in the spirit of my list.

------------------------------------------
As far as getting the right tone. I really believe that the classical embouchure is not the correct one for Irish flute. There has been a lot of debate lately about "tight" vs. "relaxed" embouchure. Traditionally, Irish flute players use a very tight, thin embouchure, that looks very little like a classical embouchure. Seamus Hernon, the son of reknowned box player P.J. Hernon, and nephew of equally reknowned Galway/Sligo flute player Marcus Hernon told me that Marcus has told him (confusing eh?) that to get the right sound one should pull their lips so tight that the corner of the lips and part of the cheeks hurt like crazy. Keep this up for a couple of months and the muscles will strengthen, the hurt will go away, and one will sound like an Irish flute player. I tried this and it is working. Having examined the embouchures of Hammy Hamilton, Paul McGratten, Colm O'Donnel (Achill), Michael Hurley, Marcus O'Morchu, Harry Bradley, Christy Barry, Laurence Nugent, Joannie Madden, Peter Malloy and asked them questions about their embouchures I find that they all play with very tight, and often somewhat deformed embouchures. Joannie Madden has the strangest embouchure I've seen, probably to compensate for the silver flute, followed by Larry Nugent, who seems to be a lip contortionist.
Now, according to discussion on the Woodenflute list, a lot of people are switiching over a more relaxed embouchure. The one player that is mentioned quite often is Tom Doorly of Danu (who plays a Seery flute, by the way). I really have not seen any evidence of some sort of mass conversion to a relaxed embouchure among top flute players, but I have to admit, playing with a relaxed embouchure would feel pretty nice and makes sense on some levels. However, here's what I personally think is going on with these switches to a relaxed embouchure. Someone like Tom Doorly has been playing the flute with a tight embouchure nearly his entire life. His lips are strong. It doesn't hurt him anymore. He has very, very good control over his tone. Having already built up his muscles and established a good, tight embouchure I think he has the leeway, and the control, to loosen up a little bit and hear an improvement in tonal control. However, I think that if one were going to play with a soft embouchure from the start they'd have a really hard time easily tightening up when necessary. Basically, I think that it only works one way. My theory is that you really have to start with a tight embouchure, establish that, and then, once you've already got a good tone, you can do what you will, but this does not work in reverse. This is just my theory. I may be wrong, but I think I'm probably right.

Edited for spelling

<font size=-1>[ This Message was edited by: CraigMc on 2002-09-03 13:29 ]</font>

gcollins · Post by **gcollins** » Wed Sep 04, 2002 5:28 am

That last one was a good post; I remember reading it.

Is it my imagination, or does it seem that the American/Australian flute makers work on the embouchures for more relaxed lipwork than the Irish/European flute makers who make flutes requiring tight-ass lips?

No cultural discrimination intended, nor is this intended as a metaphor of relative worldview (sp?)!

BillG · Post by **BillG** » Wed Sep 04, 2002 5:44 am

gcollins - Are you a member of woodenflute.com? If so, you should post this there and see how they respond. Numerous makers are on that list. If you are not, with your permission, I will pose that question there. I would be interested in knowing the answer since I play an Ormiston made in Scotland and an M&E made in Irelan.

BillG

ChrisLaughlin · Post by **ChrisLaughlin** » Wed Sep 04, 2002 7:24 am

Thanks for the spelling corrections

I wouldn't mind if you post this to the woodenflute list, but you would please do it without my name attached? I'm not embarresed about what I wrote, and I still think it stands - it's just that I know a lot of those guys on that list and I'd rather hear their reaction without them knowing that they were responding to me.
Thanks,
Chris

CraigMc · Post by **CraigMc** » Wed Sep 04, 2002 8:02 am

I think Bill is refering to G's comments on the possible difference between Irish and American made flutes.

Thanks for the post Chris, I never let you know what it did for me. It really dispelled some of the confusion and frustration I was having.

- Craig

ChrisLaughlin · Post by **ChrisLaughlin** » Wed Sep 04, 2002 8:22 am

I see now.
Craig, thank you for the kind words. I'm really glad my thoughts were helpful to you. Now if only I could get those darn crans crisper!
Best,
Chris

gcollins · Post by **gcollins** » Thu Sep 05, 2002 6:45 pm

Hi BillG:

I saw that you posed this on woodenflute. I too would like to hear responses. I have a Wilkes head with a round embouchure that sounds just awesome with a very tight, focused embouchure. the more contemporary square-oval shapes of the Olwell, McGee or Noy are much more relaxed on the lips. IMHO.

Hopefully, no one gets upset with my tight-ass comment!

BillG · Post by **BillG** » Fri Sep 06, 2002 2:27 am

It seems as though a few members of woodenflute agree that there SEEMS to be a trend toward the softer embouchure. AND that some makers MAY be leaning in that direction. No makers, however, have resonded yet.

BillG

BillG · Post by **BillG** » Fri Sep 06, 2002 2:27 am

It seems as though a few members of woodenflute agree that there SEEMS to be a trend toward the softer embouchure. AND that some makers MAY be leaning in that direction. No makers, however, have resonded yet.

BillG

BillG · Post by **BillG** » Fri Sep 06, 2002 2:27 am

It seems as though a few members of woodenflute agree that there SEEMS to be a trend toward the softer embouchure. AND that some makers MAY be leaning in that direction. No makers, however, have resonded yet.

BillG

Stan · Post by **Stan** » Fri Sep 06, 2002 6:10 am

BiLLG-
I have searched the woodenflute site but can't seem to find any discussion whatsoever
concerning this subject of rigid/softer
embouchure styles and differences of emb holes. Can someone please link me to the
recent post/discussions. Thanks......

dcopley · Post by **dcopley** » Fri Sep 06, 2002 6:58 am

On 2002-09-04 07:28, gcollins wrote:

Is it my imagination, or does it seem that the American/Australian flute makers work on the embouchures for more relaxed lipwork than the Irish/European flute makers who make flutes requiring tight-ass lips?

The embouchure hole cut and size should be matched to the flute bore and hole configuration. A Pratten style flute responds to its full potential if it has a largish embouchure hole shaped to require a highly focussed air stream. Rudall/Rose and Nicholson type flutes play nicely with a smaller hole cut to allow a more relaxed approach.

I think that in Europe and in the US/Australia you will find some makers favoring the "relaxed" embouchure and some favoring the "tight-ass" approach. Yes, there probably is more tendency to the relaxed embouchure style among US and Australian makers, and this is a reflection of their customer's preferences. They likely sell to more first-time flute buyers who would be ill-advised to start with a highly demanding instrument. So, Greg, I'd agree with your original statement, but I think of it as more of a tendency than a hard-and fast rule, and it probably goes along with the overall style and "size" of flute as much as anything.

Dave Copley
Loveland, Ohio

<font size=-1>[ This Message was edited by: dcopley on 2002-09-06 09:02 ]</font>

BillG · Post by **BillG** » Fri Sep 06, 2002 5:33 pm

Stan - check the subject line [woodenflute] Embouchure query and you should find about 10 or 12 articles. I just left there and saved a few which are really good and on the money. Dave Copley just about summed them up in his above post.

Nice post, Dave, thanx.

BillG