was there ever any attempts to make a flute with valves?

[I.D.10-t]

Reading up on the history of natural horns some included holes at certain points to bring the pitch in tune. For awhile it seems keyed Bugles were a thing.

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Keyed_bugle

On the other hand, reed instruments also seem to be primarily keyed with the rare outliers so I guess brass instraments are the outliers?

[Cyberknight]

Reading up on the history of natural horns some included holes at certain points to bring the pitch in tune. For awhile it seems keyed Bugles were a thing.

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Keyed_bugle

On the other hand, reed instruments also seem to be primarily keyed with the rare outliers so I guess brass instraments are the outliers?

I think there are two reasons that brass instruments have valves, while other instruments (particularly reedless aerophones) do not. (Note that this is mostly speculation on my part; I'm basing this on my vague understanding of acoustics based on reading a bunch of online articles; if I'm wrong about this, I'd love to be corrected by someone on here).

First, valves are more complicated, and brass instruments only have them because they NEED valves more than other instruments. This is because of the way their bores are shaped. They have bores that are mostly cylindrical or slightly conical, but they suddenly become VERY conical about 2/3 of the way through the instrument. This is done to improve the brightness of the tone and to get the right overtones and force the harmonic series to function properly. The problem with cutting a hole in the instrument is that it causes the sound to bypass the end of the instrument, where most of the conical part of the bore is. This causes the tone to lose some of its brightness, and it makes some overtones weaker. This, I think, is why people settled on valves for brass...because they change the bore length without affecting how conical the bore is.

Second, valves work much better on brass than they would on other instruments, because brass is designed to easily play a full harmonic series starting on the second harmonic, unlike most other instruments (due to a variety of factors). This means they can play a full chromatic 3 octaves with just three valves. This wouldn't work on a reedless aerophone, which acts as a tube open on both sides and naturally plays the first harmonic. So you'd need 4 valves to play a full chromatic scale in the first octave. And even with 4, you'd have egregious pitch problems, because the more valves you add, the more "error" is added to the pitch when you open multiple valves at once. This can be (mostly) corrected using embouchure on 4-valve brass instruments, but it would be much harder to correct on flute and impossible to correct on whistle, due to the limited embouchure control you get. This means you'd need at least 5 valves to reliably play a chromatic scale in both octaves.

5 complicated piston valves vs. 6 holes and 4-8 relatively simple keys ... kinda makes sense that people chose to go with the latter.

[Mr.Gumby]

I think there are two reasons that brass instruments have valves, while other instruments (particularly aerophones) do not. ..

aerophone, any of a class of musical instruments in which a vibrating mass of air produces the initial sound. The basic types include woodwind, brass, and free-reed instruments, as well as instruments that fall into none of these groups, such as the bull-roarer and the siren.
(Encyclopedia Brittanica)

Note that this is mostly speculation on my part; I'm basing this on my vague understanding

[Cyberknight]

I think there are two reasons that brass instruments have valves, while other instruments (particularly aerophones) do not. ..

aerophone, any of a class of musical instruments in which a vibrating mass of air produces the initial sound. The basic types include woodwind, brass, and free-reed instruments, as well as instruments that fall into none of these groups, such as the bull-roarer and the siren.
(Encyclopedia Brittanica)

Note that this is mostly speculation on my part; I'm basing this on my vague understanding

So...you're showing me a picture of an obsolete brass instrument with keys that was replaced with a better instrument with valves, specifically to solve the issues with tonal consistency/brightness that I identified in my comment...and your point is what exactly?

To clarify, when I talked about my position being "mostly speculation," I meant my explanation as to the specific acoustic reasons WHY valves work so much better on brass instruments, and so much worse on the flute family. What ISN'T speculation is the fact that keys are inferior on brass instruments. I know this for a fact due to my experience as a brass player, my experience listening to more primitive brass instruments, and a lot of reading on this subject.

Regarding "aerophone," I was referring to the flute family, which makes sound through air oscillating over an opening, rather than using a reed. Apparently I used that term incorrectly. Oops. I should have said "reedless aerophone." Editing my comment to fix this.

[Terry McGee]

I can't bring to mind any attempt to use valves on flutes in the way brass use valves - to increase or decrease the length of tubing in use.

Interestingly, Potter used the term "valve" for what we call pewter plug keys. Here's an augmented extract from his 1785 Patent document:

The Valves [Pewter Plugs]
All the before-mentioned keys are made to stop with a metal conical valve K put on the key L, by the small screw (N), to hang loose as on a swivel.

[The hip term "to hang loose" has been around longer than we might have thought!]

There is a small hole at the lower end of the key L to receive the screw (M). When the conical keys are fixed to the instrument there is a short piece of metal pipe (N) let in under the centre of the valve, which is countersunk to receive the valve.



These conical valve keys are applicable to any kind of wind instruments wherein keys are used. The notch [slot] cut to fix the key in is lined with metal to prevent wearing by friction. The keys in other respects are as usual on other instruments, and pinned in with a wire and a spring on the lever end. When pressed by the fingers, the key raises the valve, and by raising the finger the spring forces the valve back into the countersunk pipe (N).

More on Potter's Patent at https://www.mcgee-flutes.com/PottersGer ... Patent.htm

But this is all by way of a distraction to the topic at hand. Just a potential confusion of the word "valve".

[Mr.Gumby]

Oops. I should have said "reedless aerophone."

If you insist using the term, read description of 'aerophone' again and apply correctly.

[I.D.10-t]

valves work much better on brass than they would on other instruments, because brass is designed to easily play a full harmonic series starting on the second harmonic, unlike most other instruments (due to a variety of factors).

Not as common as the Boeham flutes, but the tabor pipe, txistu, willow flute, fujara, and other members of the flute family of instraments fall into a similar harmonic window. But doubling the standard D flute, adding 3 rotors and a pinkie slide for equal temperament does sound like it would get to be a bit complicated.

[Cyberknight]

Oops. I should have said "reedless aerophone."

If you insist using the term, read description of 'aerophone' again and apply correctly.

I am applying it correctly. The flute family consists of reedless aerophones. Capped reed instruments, double reed instruments, and brass instruments all have reeds (your lips act as reeds in brass instruments). So the term "reedless aerophones" includes the flute family and excludes every instrument I wanted to exclude.

[Cyberknight]

valves work much better on brass than they would on other instruments, because brass is designed to easily play a full harmonic series starting on the second harmonic, unlike most other instruments (due to a variety of factors).

Not as common as the Boeham flutes, but the tabor pipe, txistu, willow flute, fujara, and other members of the flute family of instraments fall into a similar harmonic window. But doubling the standard D flute, adding 3 rotors and a pinkie slide for equal temperament does sound like it would get to be a bit complicated.

Yes, that's a good point. You could get a fully chromatic 2 octaves with just 4 valves (or 3 valves and a pinky slide), if you doubled the length of the instrument and only ever played it in its higher registers.

My guess, though, is that this would be very difficult to play - much more difficult than your typical flute. It would be like playing a bass flute but only ever playing the upper octaves and never playing the instrument's fundamental. I've never played a bass flute, so I don't really know how hard this is. But I imagine it would be significantly more difficult than simply playing a standard flute. It would also have worse intonation, because you get more and more pitch problems the more you use higher fundamentals.

I also imagine the instrument would have a very limited usable range. I don't know about those other instruments you mentioned, but I know the tabor pipe is typically played primarily in 1 octave - playing past that sounds terrible and pitchy. Similarly, playing into the third octave on an Irish flute sounds pretty bad, unless you have keys (and even then, few people can get it to sound good). The third octave on Boehm system bass flutes sounds excellent, but I think that's accomplished with extra keys that open special holes specifically design for playing in the third octave. All this to say, if all you had was 3 valves and a pinky slide, I rather doubt you'd be able to get more than one fully-chromatic octave out of the instrument. Playing into an octave above that would probably sound something like trying to play an Irish flute in the third octave.

All that said, I'd love to see someone prove me wrong and make an instrument that works this way and plays well. As a former brass player who dabbles in Irish flute, I'd certainly be excited to try out some hybrid between the two.

For the same reason, I'd love to try out a cornetto some day. A trumpet with recorder fingerings looks like a beautiful combination of two of my favorite instruments.

[Terry McGee]

... the term "reedless aerophones" includes the flute family and excludes every instrument I wanted to exclude.

Now there is an old line of argument that says the flute family must have a reed or it wouldn't work, and so they came up with the "air reed" or "air blade" to fill the intellectual vacuum. Modern flute acoustics prefers the term "air jet". And it's fair to say that the switching of the air jet does for the flute what the physical reed does for the other aerophones.

I still remember with amusement when the Topic album "The Breeze from Erin : Irish Folk Music on Wind Instruments" came out in 1969. And included a couple of accordion tracks. We were all a bit blown away by the notion of the box being called a wind instrument. Until we thought about it for a few minutes. And given it also included some Irish piping, we couldn't even fall back on to "mouth blown". We fluters were suddenly a minority member of what we had thought of as our territory!