Chiff and Fipple Forums

Jayhawk wrote:.....
I highly value free discourse. You never know where gems of wisdom will come from.

......

Yes, I freely agree with this.

If I recall correctly, the great Indian flautist, Hariprasad Chaurasia, had initial flute training from Pundit (maestro) Bholanath of Banaras (a bansuri player). Years later he finessed his development from Annapurna Devi who plays sitaar. He even changed from right handed to left handed playing to demonstrate his commitment to take tuition from her and she doesn't even play flute.

You see, often its about musical rather than instrumental tuition.

Imagine, if Mozart is conducting an orchestra and gives some advice to a trombone player and the trombone player (being American) turns around and says,
"Fuch you, man. Don't tell me how to play my instrument unless you can play it better than me."

I, too, value discourse.
I have learnt much from listeners who wouldn't know the front from the the back of a flute.

What is music without audience?
Even in lonely times and places, the artless cave teaches
by her echoes.

Jayhawk wrote:In addition, having to "test out" one's ability will discourage free discourse and still provides no evidence that the player has the ability to read others and provide advice in a way that will encourage others instead of discourage them.

I highly value free discourse. You never know where gems of wisdom will come from.

Yes, but how do you "read" others on this forum? I mean we don't hear how someone plays who comes with some questions regards possible improvements in her/his playing. Since we don't hear there is a huge amount of guessing going on, and advice given on such a base. Maybe it is not the blind leading the blind, but the deaf leading the dumb in this situation. Nobody can truly act as teacher here. Its just the wrong relationship.

We need not only clips of flute playing from so called accomplished players who like to give advice, but also of anyone asking for advice! Quite frankly I don't see this will happen, as people will be too shy or too frightened to be criticised. I am often shocked by the advice given here, by the judgements made, and by the mountains of speculation it is based on.

My best advice is: don't listen to any advice here, unless you know the person it is coming from. Rather always seek face to face and ear to mouth to ear advice, which you won't get on such a forum as this.

(you may wish to contemplate the philosophical consequences of such advice just given, but please return to playing the flute before the mind goes crazy)

Hans, didn't I give you advice about your large bansuri once, about where the tonic was for to play a piece of music and you publicly thanked me for that?

Then another time you followed my suggestions about playing some "mystery" music on your Irish flute and got a result that excited and encouraged you and others as well as me?

Do you recall me posting any clips? No, but you gave me the benefit of the doubt and received some benefit, didn't you?

And the whole forum benefitted? Not because of me, no.
The benefit is a symbiosis of one poster's contribution with those of others.

This is the stuff of community rather than a martial arts dojo
(where all defer to one with the greatest credentialled authority).

johnkerr wrote:

jim stone wrote:I've been playing hard for four and one half years,
in case anybody wishes to know.

Jim, commercials I've seen on TV while watching the ballgame suggest that if you find yourself playing hard for more than four hours you should contact your doctor immediately. I know that medical advice is frowned upon here, but I'm extremely alarmed to hear that you've had this condition for four and one half YEARS, so I hope an exception can be made in this case. Contact your doctor immediately, please. But do wipe that smile off your face first...

WOOF!

talasiga, yes of course I do sometimes listen to advice. Especially if it is backed with evidence. It is easier to listen to theoretical advice (less evidence required). Putting up clips can supply good evidence, can be very convincing and inspiring.

So I will need to modify my advice:
Listen to as much advice as possible, preferably face to face, and mouth to ear to mouth advice. One or two hours with a good teacher can nourish you for years, even from a workshop situation.

hans wrote: Yes, but how do you "read" others on this forum? I mean we don't hear how someone plays who comes with some questions regards possible improvements in her/his playing. Since we don't hear there is a huge amount of guessing going on, and advice given on such a base. Maybe it is not the blind leading the blind, but the deaf leading the dumb in this situation. Nobody can truly act as teacher here. Its just the wrong relationship.

If no one can act as teacher (which I agree with somewhat - this is not a lesson), how come we can and do learn from each other? Learning is occuring, therefore someone, whether they mean to or not, has taught someone something.

hans wrote: We need not only clips of flute playing from so called accomplished players who like to give advice, but also of anyone asking for advice!

Why? Is this so the non-teachers can target a questioner and provide guidance?

hans wrote: My best advice is: don't listen to any advice here, unless you know the person it is coming from. Rather always seek face to face and ear to mouth to ear advice, which you won't get on such a forum as this.

I've gotten some great advice here from people I don't know at all. I'm also living in a place without, until recently, too many flute players to seek advice from locally.

The best example of help provided not by any player I'd consider an expert that I received here relates to my lips and my embouchure. I had an unfortunate run in with a fire hydrant cap when I was 6 or 7 which led to stiches and a slightly disfigured upper lip which hinders the "normal" embouchure formation espoused by books and every expert I've spoken to or who has posted to this board. However, there is a small community of us on this board with similar issues, and they helped me more than anyone else did with working around this issue and moving forward.

Finally, I'm not sure a clip can provide a ton of information about the player and their ability unless they have the equipment and space to do their playing justice. The microphone on my computer is circa 1996 and came free from Packard Bell with my first computer, my soundcard is ancient, the room my computer in is small, carpeted, has a low ceiling and surrounded by books which deaden sound immensely...my sound is not good at all when I record clips on my computer. Sure you could tell about my rhythm, timing, and skill with ornamentation, but you'd not be hearing what I sound like anywhere else.

Eric

Jayhawk wrote:If no one can act as teacher (which I agree with somewhat - this is not a lesson), how come we can and do learn from each other? Learning is occurring, therefore someone, whether they mean to or not, has taught someone something.

Well in a way we are all each others teacher. But it is not a normal teacher/pupil relationship. I mostly learn by following interesting hints to explore avenues I have not considered before. I am thankful to folks here providing such a wide spread of hints and pointers to other resources, including musical material, clips, especially video clips, and lots of knowledge about "the flute": timber, keys, makers models etc.

Jayhawk wrote:

hans wrote: We need not only clips of flute playing from so called accomplished players who like to give advice, but also of anyone asking for advice!

Why? Is this so the non-teachers can target a questioner and provide guidance?

I don't know what you mean by "target": to shoot someone down or to offer specific advice. I meant the latter. To hear where the question is coming from. I just dream of a forum meeting space where we can hear each other, instead of just typing words. The technology is already there, maybe not for everyone, but still it is possible to share in more than written words.

Bad teachers are usually bad communicators. So they disqualify themselves on a forum like this since they need to write down their advice. Badly communicated advice will likely be ignored.

Jayhawk wrote:Finally, I'm not sure a clip can provide a ton of information about the player and their ability unless they have the equipment and space to do their playing justice.

Even as simple PC microphone can give decent results for flute. It does not need to be HiFi standard, with just the right reverb etc. But yes, it may not give justice to the player or the music, it is only a simple recording. Still better than nothing.

Advice, both given and taken, is cheap. On the other hand, it's free. I go through periods of checking out the C&F forum for things I find interesting. If I have something to say, I chime in. More often than not, I don't, because someone else voiced the same opinion or thought, or I'm too busy, or I've posted on that same topic before (threads do repeat themselves a bit, don't they?). Now I'm supposed to take time out to record a clip of my playing (after I figure out how to do just that), post it somewhere on a site I know nothing about, just so that my idle and often fleeting thoughts or opinions will be taken with the same grain of salt it was before?
I often (though not often enough, lately) go out to pubs and play in public; most of my life, I've performed one sort of music or another before small and large audiences. On the other hand, I joined this forum to "talk" with players and makers of wooden flutes because it's a common interest; we swap our experiences, advice and opinions, right, wrong or simply different, freely. If all this talk can be summed up as "put up or shut up," I'd just assume go out to the pubs and forget the forum. Without meaning to sound defensive or hostile, I didn't join C&F to prove anything to anyone. You want to hear me play, for the next few months, at least, I live in NYC.
Gordon

10 years? something like that... none of them have i played particularly well.

Hi there,

Hans wrote;

(you may wish to contemplate the philosophical consequences of such advice just given, but please return to playing the flute before the mind goes crazy)

A sentiment I would identify with.

`One might advocate that to become an accomplished or good player, takes 90% perspiration and 10% Inspiration`.

Nothing really new or profound here with this view, but one which is shared by just about everybody I can think of.

It may be worthwhile however, asking the question, how much does one actually `perspire`as opposed to `Inspire`.

An interesting experiment might be to switch off one's pc, close one's books, pause the dvd's and mp3's for 1/2 or more months and concentrate on perspiring.

Inspire to perspire, so that the perspiration will produce one's own inspiration.

I reckon the `personality`, `character` and `heart` of the music lies
in the `perspiration` of the player.

`No harm will be incurred by anyone trying this experiment`

Switch everything on again, pick up something else, switch off perspire etc.

Cheers
pkev

reading this thread makes me perspire, i need to go lay down and take a break, i'm bushed.

on a more serious note, jim's suggestion and cocusflute's suggestion are agreeable to me. i feel like we would get to know each other a little better, better for the community. of course everything is voluntary anyway, but i necessarily wouldn't discourage the practice of their suggestions. so post those soundclips if you got'em!

ok, i'll go last.

I remember when you posted some sound clips a few years back, and they were muy caliente!!!!

Go ahead

Me, I have nothing to prove (although I realize we are not "proving" anything).

5 years of sounding like crapp, but less crapp than I was at first!

M

Jayhawk wrote:......Finally, I'm not sure a clip can provide a ton of information about the player and their ability unless they have the equipment and space to do their playing justice.
.......

yes, I agree again.

BTW, last year some people saw me doing some live "jazz raag" stuff and invited me to play on their pop CD.

Even though this sort of music isn't my normal sphere of interest I agreed and I am on tracks 2, 5 and 6:-

http://cdbaby.com/cd/atmospheres

I basically just improvised something to their music and they recorded it.

Some of it I like and some not.

I like the flute on track 6 the best. Unfortunately the sample doesn't go long enough for you to hear me also playing my little G bansuri in flight.

I said about track 6 "the flute" rather than "my flute" even though it is me playing my flute because when I listen to it I cannot believe that it is me playing it.

Resume

1)'93started to self learn the fife, realized how much over lap there was with Irish music.
2)Blasted away for a while and got serious in '03 when I had time and took lessons with a baroque player.
3)Improved for two years greatly.
4)Bought a good flute.
5)Had less time and sound worse than ever on both.
6) Hope to have time to start ITM lessons and start them soon.

I try to keep my advice limited to what I know and what I think I have unique experience in. When I venture into questionable territory I tell my qualifications, and when I know my advice is less experienced, I try to admit lack of knowledge and defer to others.

If anyone needs advice, they should simply "Ask Colin!"™