Point of information....Piccolo, fife?

Jim_B1 · Post by **Jim_B1** » Wed Oct 02, 2002 6:40 pm

Just wondering, what's the difference between a piccolo and a fife? They both appear to be smaller, higher pitched 6 hole, transverse flutes. Just a point of information for me.
Thanks
-Jim

BillG · Post by **BillG** » Thu Oct 03, 2002 3:55 am

The picollo is chromatic like a flute in miniature size, while the fife is purely diatonic. Six holes - or 10 or 11 to attempt being chromatic and avoid cross-fingering.

BillG

Jim_B1 · Post by **Jim_B1** » Thu Oct 03, 2002 4:50 am

So a piccolo is like a high pitch flute whereas a fife is like a transverse whistle?

BillG · Post by **BillG** » Thu Oct 03, 2002 5:17 am

Yes to both. I played a fife for a number of years. It is the same pitch as the D whistle and the fingerings are identical - as long as you are playing the 6 hole fife. The 10 hole fife could be more like playing a recorder but in a different key. Fifes are USUALLY pitched in Bb but the bell note is D as on the D whistle. Many of the Irish hornpipes and reels were often played on the fife but it isn't really a "parlor" instrument. For that reason, mainly, I began the wooden flute and the whistle.

The picollo is often played where very high pitch is needed in similar music to the flute (Boehm) and is played the same way. I tried one once but my fingers got so bunched up and tight I gave it up - fortunately I only borrowed it to see how it felt.

BillG

Harry · Post by **Harry** » Thu Oct 03, 2002 7:48 am

Also ,fifes are straight bored while the piccollo is conically bored.

Regards, Harry.

http://www.strayceol.com

BillG · Post by **BillG** » Thu Oct 03, 2002 11:54 am

[quote]
On 2002-10-03 09:48, Harry wrote:
Also ,fifes are straight bored while the piccollo is conically bored.

Except for the Skip Healy fife. It is now being made with a conical head joint. The rest of it, the main body, is straignt.

BillG

jim_mc · Post by **jim_mc** » Thu Oct 03, 2002 4:27 pm

Beg to differ, but as a fifer of 30 years, I can promise you that a fife is not a cylindrical bore instrument. It would be quite impossible for a cylindrical bore fife to be internally tuned over its 3 octave range unless there was either a conical bore (as most fifes are), or a parabolic bore in the head joint with a cylindrical bore in the body and tone holes close to the boehm schema (as the Healy fife is).

Essentially, a fife is a simple system flute in a higher key - usually B flat, but often A or C. Simple system flutes in D and E flat are usually referred to as piccolos, even though they don't have keys.

Before someone else points this out, there are cylindrical bore fifes out on the market. The famous $6 Cooperman black plastic one is actually a pretty good student model. Any decent fife and drum corps, however, equips its fifers with either Healy fifes or one of the conical bore fifes, like the McDonagh, Ferrary or Cloos, or maybe one of the better copies of one of those (like those made by Sweetheart, Peeler, Cooperman, and others) costing $80 - $300 or more.

Jim_B1 · Post by **Jim_B1** » Thu Oct 03, 2002 6:28 pm

OK now I'm more confused

I just went on Skip Healy's web page and they have both 6 and 10 hole piccolos and fifes. Is there some defining characteristic of what is a piccolo and what is a fife that is easy to define? I know that fifes are always used in military bands (drum and fife bands and such) and usually piccolos are used in concert or orchestral settings but I'm still confused as to where the differences lie. Is it just a matter of how well the sound carries? I've read that fifes can be heard for miles on a clear day but haven't heard much about the carrying power of a piccolo (though even the name sounds small and quiet)
Thanks
-Jim

jim_mc · Post by **jim_mc** » Thu Oct 03, 2002 6:43 pm

Skip draws the distinction by the key of the instrument. He makes low D and F (flutes), C, B, B flat and A (fifes), and high D and E flat (piccolos). Six, ten or 11 holes, keys or no keys, it doesn't matter.

The terms fife and piccolo are often used interchangeably when speaking about folk instruments. I've never heard of anyone referring to any modern (Boehm) orchestral instrument as a fife, but I have heard people calling fifes piccolos or irish piccolos or simple system piccolos, and vice versa. There is no definition that has been set in stone, but Skip's way of breaking it down is very commonly accepted.

By the way, volume has nothing to do with it. A Healy piccolo in D, when played up into the third octave, can produce quite a bit of volume. Comparable to a Healy B flat fife.
Nothing like my 150 year old Cloos fife in B flat, though. That's the one they were talking about when they said a fife could be heard for 2 miles.

_________________
B flat or begone!

[ This Message was edited by: jim_mc on 2002-10-03 20:51 ]

[ This Message was edited by: jim_mc on 2002-10-03 20:52 ]

Harry · Post by **Harry** » Thu Oct 03, 2002 7:39 pm

There is no definition that has been set in stone, but Skip's way of breaking it down is very commonly accepted.<<

Dat aint d storie in dis neck a tha woods.

Fife of straight bore C / B / A or thereabouts (some of the old homemade ones VERY thereabouts!) and piccollo in concert pitch an octave up from our beloveds or thereabouts ( again sometimes more abouts than there).

There are instances of homemade jobs with staight bores in or around concert pitch, like some 'practice' flutes of today. I'd consider them flutes as opposed fifes. What good are rules that can't be bent!

Regards, Harry.

http://www.strayceol.com

[ This Message was edited by: Harry on 2002-10-03 21:42 ]

jim_mc · Post by **jim_mc** » Thu Oct 03, 2002 7:50 pm

Ah, but Harry, you're on the other side of the pond. Don't you know us Yanks have the monopoly on the fife now?

Seriously, though, you play through 3 octaves on a straight bore fife? All my woodwind physics knowledge tells me your 3rd octave would be way out of tune with your first! Tell me if I'm wrong.

_________________
B flat or begone!

[ This Message was edited by: jim_mc on 2002-10-03 21:53 ]

Harry · Post by **Harry** » Thu Oct 03, 2002 8:09 pm

Seriously, though, you play through 3 octaves on a straight bore fife? All my woodwind physics knowledge tells me your 3rd octave would be way out of tune with your first! Tell me if I'm wrong.<<<

Any fife associated marches I have heard from over here hang exclusively around the 2nd and 3rd octaves, that is the octaves the instrument was/is traditionally played in with a cross fingered scale for the 3rd octave(although some such tunes have been adopted as polkas for dances and fun and are played in the sober lower octaves on safer instruments!).

That's from both the Orange marching tradition (although the more modern, bigger bands now largely use wee Bflat marching band conical flutes and less interesting tunes in the 2 lower octaves), and the enduring Kerry 'wren boys' tradition. The Kerrymen actually mostly use d whistles now, but they use the 2 higher octaves remembering the crossfingering for all those 3rd octave nasties.

Regards, Harry.

http://www.strayceol.com

[ This Message was edited by: Harry on 2002-10-03 22:14 ]

jim_mc · Post by **jim_mc** » Thu Oct 03, 2002 8:20 pm

Ok, so what's the difference between the wee B flat conical flutes and the B flat fifes? Just the bore?

If that's the case, then here in America we don't play what you'd consider fifes, we play what you'd call wee B flat conical flutes!

I saw the St. Mary's flute band, from Limerick, and they played what I would have called keyed B flat fifes. They did only play in the lower 2 octaves.

We play clear through all 3 octaves, but of course we prefer those pieces with lots screaming third octave notes.

Harry · Post by **Harry** » Fri Oct 04, 2002 8:08 am

[quote]
On 2002-10-03 22:20, jim_mc wrote:
Ok, so what's the difference between the wee B flat conical flutes and the B flat fifes? Just the bore? <<<<<

I'm only going on information from Sam Murray on the Bflat fife. Any I have seen or played have been of lower pitch. The major differences between the fife and marching band Bflat flute would be the fife's straight bore, the fife is usually made in on peice(where the marching band flutes have a head joint), the fifes are unkeyed (where the Bflat flute often have one key at the bottom for B), the fingerhole size and spacings are different and the embochure of the fifes seem to be very variable in regards their shape and size. They are also generally older than the marching band flutes.

>I saw the St. Mary's flute band, from Limerick, and they played what I would have called keyed B flat fifes. They did only play in the lower 2 octaves.<

The fife (or what I'm considering a fife)is not played in bands as it used to be over here, it is an older instrument that has largely been supplanted by the conical Bflat marching band flute that you mention.

The fife has only really hung on in a small way with the country orange marching bands(Based mostly around Co. Antrim) which would consist of a couple of fifers and a couple of Lambeg drummers. It's survival there is due to the sheer volume of the drums which are played with bare thin hooks of wood. Marching band flutes played an octave down would be lost behind such loud percussion.

Regards, Harry.

http://www.strayceol.com

[ This Message was edited by: Harry on 2002-10-04 10:09 ]

[ This Message was edited by: Harry on 2002-10-04 10:15 ]

RudallRose · Post by **RudallRose** » Fri Oct 04, 2002 1:52 pm

The dictionary merely says the fife is a musical instrument that's higher in pitch than a flute.
I'd presume it means the standard flute in "C", or the old flute we play, in D (based mostly on its scaling and lowest note, depending on your vantage).
Fife: A wooden, unkeyed traverse flute pitched normally to Bb (concert Ab) or C (Concert D).
Piccolo: The octave to the flute. Ergo, an instrument (keyed or not) in D (concert C)
Others would be called a flute in Eb, F, or some other such key. Then of course, you could have a piccolo Eb or F (very small, i'd imagine) if your reference point is a flute of that pitch.
Now, with the reintroduction of Bb flutes (long ones) one could summize that a fife in Bb is merely the piccolo to that flute.
But in the American definition of fife (there were some with one key that floated about.....but once you add more keys, now you have a band flute, so to speak), it's unkeyed, typically in Bb.
They were conical, tapered bores for years and years from American makers such as Cloos and Crosby....until Roy Seaman began experimenting with the design in the 1940s/50s with John McDonagh and came up with the double-conical (the taper reopens at the end) using the theories such as Quantz. Now, most of those fifes are made with double-conical, just like the good flutes.
Range is from low D to three Ds above that, so you have a full three octaves on a 6-hole instrument. The conical ones can do it, too, but not as cleanly. The double-cone was used not to make the upper register is clean, but the lower louder.
Hope this is of some interest/help to you all.