What Willie said..

[Cathy Wilde]

I don't know about anyone else, but for me melodic stuctures (in ITM, anyway) imply chords and keys already. An arpeggio doesn't exist in a vacuum, after all.

Correllation does not imply causation (OK, now I'm being pedantic).

But still, that's like saying the Ancient Egyptians had Space Age technology because of the construction and alignment of the pyramids.

True, but back to the musical sense ... as even, say, the 12-tone scale demonstrates, the building blocks are there. What people create with them and the intervals/matrices between is what makes for such wonderful variation. If the Egyptians hadn't had math, then maybe Space Age technology wouldn't be what it is at present (of course, it'll change soon enough!).

Gary, the guitar chords in McCulloch's book are limited to major or minor. Not the "right" answer (at least not when a tune's really supposed to be Mixolydian or Dorian), but definitely the expedient one for people who want to play sessions like, next week.

(And I think that's what that book is basically for, anyway)

[Brazenkane]

[quote=

It is true that polyphonic chords are richer for harmonic elucidation but they come at the expense of richness of melodic development within the mode and in relation to a tonic dominated harmonic.[/quote]

what a sentence!?

beware of absolutes.

[Cathy Wilde]

Point taken. WELL taken.

[Nanohedron]

Talasiga, I read your post from which the below was taken, and I don't see any disagreement between us. I think it's a matter of angle. Anyway:

...the chords must support the melodic line according to the mode. For example, if the song is E Dorian (as you know, this means a song that uses only some or only all of the notes of DM/Bm key signature but ending on E) the last chord must be Em and not something that resolves somewhere else to explore other relative modal possibilities withing DM/Bm key signature.

First sentence: yes, although I think "according to ITS mode" would be better (see next). Second sentence: just to be nitpicky, if ya gotta play chords, I give you the three-part jig "Snug in a Blanket", which starts in Am (or, possibly, open D), resolves into Gmag, and in the 2nd and 3rd parts start in Dmaj and resolve into Gmaj. The Gmaj resolution doesn't sound like a resolution, but functions as a tension to be released by lauching into the next part. There are three strong and distinct key colors in the jig. Anyway, I like to end it in G although the effect is sorta like "ellipsis marks" in a sentence. Some might like to end it with a concluding A or D stroke, and I could see that. What one key is it in? I like to say the key of Q.

All of which is starting to give props to the camp of no accompaniment...

[AaronMalcomb]

beware of absolutes.

Too true.

Harmony and accompaniment build an excellent gateway to traditional music. I won't deny it made the music accessible to my Top 40, MTV addled ears. But now my ear has grown to appreciate and even prefer the melody and rhythm of the tunes as interpreted by the individual.

I don't think many would disagree that the melody, rhythm, and self-expression are the core of the music. All of that gets communicated through the simplest conduit of a solo performer. The issue is whether or not ensemble playing and all of the chords and harmony devalue that.

I've heard ensembles that highlight that core and others that completely blur it. So there are no absolutes.


As for my Egyptian analogy, I wanted to offer an extreme example to make a point of how filling in the gaps of incomplete evidence can go a awry.

Cheers,
Aaron

[colomon]

I don't think many would disagree that the melody, rhythm, and self-expression are the core of the music. All of that gets communicated through the simplest conduit of a solo performer. The issue is whether or not ensemble playing and all of the chords and harmony devalue that.

I think we should start a campaign right here.

Pipers of the world! Listen to the wise folk of the Chiff & Fipple. Give up your wretched drones and regulators! They are but a senseless distraction from the true nature of the music.

[Kevin L. Rietmann]

God, what a mess. Wouldn't you all be better off burning your guitars and learning to play a real instrument?
I liked your story about discovering the old stuff, Cynth. A friend has offered to set me up with a website with lotsa MP3s, old recordings, starting with 78 RPMs, I'm happy to let the world have a listen. To paraphrase an old pipemaker's ad, to Acquaint Them with Real Toned Irish Music.

[AaronMalcomb]

Pipers of the world! Listen to the wise folk of the Chiff & Fipple. Give up your wretched drones and regulators! They are but a senseless distraction from the true nature of the music.

Your kidding, I hope. I certainly do not intend to draw a line, pitting Harmoniacs against Solitarians or to segregate them.

Sounds a bit like an absolute. I don't play uilleann pipes but I am a piper so hopefully my nuanced opinions on harmony aren't too confusing. Nor should we forget that the thread was begun by an uilleann piper.

[KateG]

GaryKelly
My quibble with McCullough is that tunes are listed as major, minor or "modal" without specifying which mode, and also that his key/mode identifications are not always accurate (probably a matter of proofreading, but still). It seems as if he's closing a door rather than opening it: "it's modal, sit down, shut up and play."

[Cynth]

I liked your story about discovering the old stuff, Cynth. A friend has offered to set me up with a website with lotsa MP3s, old recordings, starting with 78 RPMs, I'm happy to let the world have a listen. To paraphrase an old pipemaker's ad, to Acquaint Them with Real Toned Irish Music.

If that ever worked out it would be a real service to many people. Some things are out of print--I know that's not the right word for recordings---and people do have limited budgets as well. Also, they are hesitant to buy CD's of the old-time music because they are afraid it will sound weird---I can understand that if you only have so much money to spend. This way they could listen to tunes and start learning about the older music and perhaps come to really enjoy it. Also, one sees references to musicians while reading or in discussions and it would be so great to be able to go listen to something that person played---it would help a person understand what was being discussed.

SteveK just posted this website that I have barely scratched the surface of:
http://juneberry78s.com/index.html

This website has a lot of different kinds of music but some Irish music and some Cape Breton Fiddling.

One thing about this website is that it just gives names of musicians but no information. I guess that would be up to the listener to look up. But if you ever could have a listening website, just a word or two about a performer---oh, was the person in the mainstream of Irish music, even the date of the recording---but then you could end up writing an entire encyclopedia!

[Brazenkane]

GaryKelly
g it: "it's modal, sit down, shut up and play."

...well it does usually boil down to the latter 3 at some point...

[Kevin L. Rietmann]

One thing about this website is that it just gives names of musicians but no information. I guess that would be up to the listener to look up. But if you ever could have a listening website, just a word or two about a performer---oh, was the person in the mainstream of Irish music, even the date of the recording---but then you could end up writing an entire encyclopedia!

Which is what I'm doing anyway. Bios of each performer, info about the tunes they played, whatnot. I want to put it all into "print," as it were. It's just stuff I've picked up from liner notes, internet, radio shows, etc. It's a bit of a chore, by the way, but what the hey.
The Juneberry stuff has largely been reissued already, some of it is off Gael-Linn and Shanachie LPs from the 70's...I'll have new stuff from most of the performers on the Irish page.