Andrew, for the board's sake, please forgive Dale whatever
grievance you may have with him and let's get on with things.
Would most appreciate your doing so. Jim
Flute stolen!! (Prague)
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Casey Burns
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As to what is a "Pratten Copy". etc. here is my own two cents worth in this semantic argument, from the perspective of someone living on an income derived from flute making.
It is not the makers stamp on these instruments that defines their excellence, or lack of it. Instead, its the acoustical characteristics determined by the physical parameters of bore, tone hole layout, embouchure, wall thickness, etc. that defines to me what is a "Pratten" type versus a "Rudall" type etc. To some these may seem like vague labels, but to insist that a Pratten copy has to be identical to the originals down to every scratch and speck of adhering dirt that might hold some DNA of the original maker's snot seems to me like so much unwarranted priggishness. There are other flute forums and lists that I no longer watch or participate in that have turned this type of accurate nastiness into its own innaccurate art form. I have no time for it!
I am not so sure of which Prattens John has measured - but I know of one that I believe he and I have both studied, that is in the hands of a private collector in northern California. Nice specimen, relatively untampered with. Turns out it was fomerly an 8 key, but is now a 6 key as the bottom two keys are missing. Thus what do we call it? Simply "Pratten" suffices, no matter how many keys. Similarly, I have seen a few Rudalls stripped of some or all of their keys and the holes cleverly filled in. Again, the label "Rudall" applies. When we copy these flutes, do we make them with exact copies with copies of the original keys, and then throw those keys away and sometimes fill in the holes, to be able to call these new flutes a Pratten or a Rudall copy? Of course not!
I am proud of John for the beautiful flutes he is making. But then, its not suprising given Rod's influence!
All of the Prattens I have measured and examined are cut from the same reamer set and share the same bore. Rudalls show much more tinkering and evolution, generally falling into two or three groups, varying in bore size, generally larger through time, reflecting the evolving gradient from Beethoven to Wagnerianism. (Paul Thomas, who I would like to meet and share a cup of cocoa with some day - as he seems to have a brilliant sense of humor that I can understand - might understand the humor in that last phrase. Alas, he lives far away!).
When I make copies of these and sell these to my clients, I call them "Prattens" and "Rudalls". That these are acoustical copies only (as the majority of my work is keyless and lacks even tuning slides) is generally understood. In the context of the wooden flute market, these names have evolved into labels, perhaps similar to wine types, e.g., Cabernet, Shiraz, etc. I have my own flute design that resembles these two, originally evolved from a Pratten but is nothing like it now - I simply call it my "standard" as me calling it a "Burns" seems a little too early. Perhaps I should call it ".6m of black hole" or "Fred", or come up with some witty acronym. Wait a few years after I am gone and call it what you will and copy all of my mistakes at will!
I would hope that the makers of a century from now on are a little less excited by Rudalls and Prattens, and are more excited by such names as Burns, Byrne (now this could really get confusing!), Cameron, Noy, McGee, Gallagher, Grinter, Healy, etc. One thing for certain - there will be more of these in better playing condition than the originals we now treasure! On the other hand, imagine the confusion that would result if the traditional flute buyer had 40-50 different models to choose from, rather than the few that most makers seem to offer. From a business standpoint (I have a mortgage to pay, a daughter to support through college and nothing saved for retirement - this is not my "hobby" but my career) the labels work!
As to the stolen flute in Prague - perhaps it will show up on eBay. Or like the Strad cello that nearly became a planter box last year, barely escape from being made into a table lamp, turned in instead by a Bohemian samaritan! I am sorry for the loss and hope it has a happy ending!
My great grandmother was from Prague. She left me with some brilliant slang, a sense of humor, and a positive outlook on life. But no stolen copies of Prattens made by a friend.
Just my own thoughts, while briefly coming up for air. Now I have to get back to the drudgery of making copies of copies of copies of original Burns flutes which were themselves based on earlier Burns flutes, and those flutes based on Burns flutes from an earlier decade, and so forth. It is so confusing since some had keys and some didn't and some were made from woods that we can no longer pronounce the names of! We still are looking for data on earlier Burns flutes, and are seeking more contributions to the Burns Flute Models Study, to accurately document and understand this maker's frequent periods of mental confusion and episodes of ennui and torpor. But I think I can call these flutes that I make now somewhat accurate Burns copies - down to the preserved spittle DNA.
When I sold flutes at craft shows, the two questions people would most frequently ask me would be "Are these something like a flute?" as well as "Which end do you blow in?" One just never knows what to say!
Play nicely!
Casey
It is not the makers stamp on these instruments that defines their excellence, or lack of it. Instead, its the acoustical characteristics determined by the physical parameters of bore, tone hole layout, embouchure, wall thickness, etc. that defines to me what is a "Pratten" type versus a "Rudall" type etc. To some these may seem like vague labels, but to insist that a Pratten copy has to be identical to the originals down to every scratch and speck of adhering dirt that might hold some DNA of the original maker's snot seems to me like so much unwarranted priggishness. There are other flute forums and lists that I no longer watch or participate in that have turned this type of accurate nastiness into its own innaccurate art form. I have no time for it!
I am not so sure of which Prattens John has measured - but I know of one that I believe he and I have both studied, that is in the hands of a private collector in northern California. Nice specimen, relatively untampered with. Turns out it was fomerly an 8 key, but is now a 6 key as the bottom two keys are missing. Thus what do we call it? Simply "Pratten" suffices, no matter how many keys. Similarly, I have seen a few Rudalls stripped of some or all of their keys and the holes cleverly filled in. Again, the label "Rudall" applies. When we copy these flutes, do we make them with exact copies with copies of the original keys, and then throw those keys away and sometimes fill in the holes, to be able to call these new flutes a Pratten or a Rudall copy? Of course not!
I am proud of John for the beautiful flutes he is making. But then, its not suprising given Rod's influence!
All of the Prattens I have measured and examined are cut from the same reamer set and share the same bore. Rudalls show much more tinkering and evolution, generally falling into two or three groups, varying in bore size, generally larger through time, reflecting the evolving gradient from Beethoven to Wagnerianism. (Paul Thomas, who I would like to meet and share a cup of cocoa with some day - as he seems to have a brilliant sense of humor that I can understand - might understand the humor in that last phrase. Alas, he lives far away!).
When I make copies of these and sell these to my clients, I call them "Prattens" and "Rudalls". That these are acoustical copies only (as the majority of my work is keyless and lacks even tuning slides) is generally understood. In the context of the wooden flute market, these names have evolved into labels, perhaps similar to wine types, e.g., Cabernet, Shiraz, etc. I have my own flute design that resembles these two, originally evolved from a Pratten but is nothing like it now - I simply call it my "standard" as me calling it a "Burns" seems a little too early. Perhaps I should call it ".6m of black hole" or "Fred", or come up with some witty acronym. Wait a few years after I am gone and call it what you will and copy all of my mistakes at will!
I would hope that the makers of a century from now on are a little less excited by Rudalls and Prattens, and are more excited by such names as Burns, Byrne (now this could really get confusing!), Cameron, Noy, McGee, Gallagher, Grinter, Healy, etc. One thing for certain - there will be more of these in better playing condition than the originals we now treasure! On the other hand, imagine the confusion that would result if the traditional flute buyer had 40-50 different models to choose from, rather than the few that most makers seem to offer. From a business standpoint (I have a mortgage to pay, a daughter to support through college and nothing saved for retirement - this is not my "hobby" but my career) the labels work!
As to the stolen flute in Prague - perhaps it will show up on eBay. Or like the Strad cello that nearly became a planter box last year, barely escape from being made into a table lamp, turned in instead by a Bohemian samaritan! I am sorry for the loss and hope it has a happy ending!
My great grandmother was from Prague. She left me with some brilliant slang, a sense of humor, and a positive outlook on life. But no stolen copies of Prattens made by a friend.
Just my own thoughts, while briefly coming up for air. Now I have to get back to the drudgery of making copies of copies of copies of original Burns flutes which were themselves based on earlier Burns flutes, and those flutes based on Burns flutes from an earlier decade, and so forth. It is so confusing since some had keys and some didn't and some were made from woods that we can no longer pronounce the names of! We still are looking for data on earlier Burns flutes, and are seeking more contributions to the Burns Flute Models Study, to accurately document and understand this maker's frequent periods of mental confusion and episodes of ennui and torpor. But I think I can call these flutes that I make now somewhat accurate Burns copies - down to the preserved spittle DNA.
When I sold flutes at craft shows, the two questions people would most frequently ask me would be "Are these something like a flute?" as well as "Which end do you blow in?" One just never knows what to say!
Play nicely!
Casey
The question raised ( in passing ) was whether the excellent flutes in question should be represented as accurate copies of the originals or not, however good they may be or whatever spirit they are made in. And the question was NOT what is a Pratten/ Rudall copy , but what should be described as in any way an almost exact copy of no 5400
How good the flutes in question are is not part of the discussion, as well you know , but the description !
Mr Burns, would you be calling a 4 key flute an accurate copy of a Pratten ? Or a " Rudall" with identical C pads to the ' Pratten' an accurate copy of a Rudall & Rose ?
Do you chamber your Rudall & Rose copies like Rudalls if the accuracy of the copy is claimed ?
To my mind they are nothing of the kind, and a customer should not be led on to think so.
You talk of wine types. They are not .They are grapes which just provide an initial clue as to what you may get.Same with Rudall style.
A recently measured Grinter showed a huge bottom diameter in what was represented as a Pratten style flute, and oversized holes. No back pressure.
It isn't a question of an appropriate bore , giving rise correctly to a description of Rudall or Pratten style when marketing. It is the dubious claim of accuracy in copying a particular model.
Jim, when Mr Wisely comes down here into the flute basement asking a strange question I am bound to suspect his motives ! Especially when the answer is so obvious.
I do feel very bad about the way he treated me , but do not feel that I have been rude to him as he says. Just telling the Truth as I see it, which he may not be comfortable with.
Mr Burns. Is Chris Wilkes correct in telling me he brought you to see me many years ago before my horrid habit of flute collecting started ?
If it was you it would be nice to see you again.
Yon can measure more Prattens and Rudalls then. REAL ones. And nicer things as well.
How good the flutes in question are is not part of the discussion, as well you know , but the description !
Mr Burns, would you be calling a 4 key flute an accurate copy of a Pratten ? Or a " Rudall" with identical C pads to the ' Pratten' an accurate copy of a Rudall & Rose ?
Do you chamber your Rudall & Rose copies like Rudalls if the accuracy of the copy is claimed ?
To my mind they are nothing of the kind, and a customer should not be led on to think so.
You talk of wine types. They are not .They are grapes which just provide an initial clue as to what you may get.Same with Rudall style.
A recently measured Grinter showed a huge bottom diameter in what was represented as a Pratten style flute, and oversized holes. No back pressure.
It isn't a question of an appropriate bore , giving rise correctly to a description of Rudall or Pratten style when marketing. It is the dubious claim of accuracy in copying a particular model.
Jim, when Mr Wisely comes down here into the flute basement asking a strange question I am bound to suspect his motives ! Especially when the answer is so obvious.
I do feel very bad about the way he treated me , but do not feel that I have been rude to him as he says. Just telling the Truth as I see it, which he may not be comfortable with.
Mr Burns. Is Chris Wilkes correct in telling me he brought you to see me many years ago before my horrid habit of flute collecting started ?
If it was you it would be nice to see you again.
Yon can measure more Prattens and Rudalls then. REAL ones. And nicer things as well.
Last edited by andrewK on Sun May 01, 2005 1:24 am, edited 2 times in total.
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Casey Burns
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No, that wasn't me. I've never met Chris personally, nor had the fortune to visit Europe. Someday, though I will probably land farther south.
Chambering is something I have never actually seen in any Rudall, out of the dozen or so that I have measured. The Rudalls that I base mine on are superior players, at least to me, and apparently didn't need it - or perhaps the British wouldn't export flutes with this feature. I am skeptical of the concept, suspecting that this is a belief based on something described in the Bate book or elsewhere, but not scientifically verifiable by direct evidence.
As to the labels that we use for these instruments or wines - I believe this serves a purpose. It would certainly be different if we were making violins for top orchestral players, and the market would demand a greater degree of accuracy in our labelling, ppeer reviewage, competitions, etc.. Thus instead of calling something based on a Strad, we would have to specify which Strad. Same with the Baroque flute world. But instead, the flutes we are making and discuss here go mostly to amateur and often beginning players for which these labels are more than adequate and useful. And few, if any, of the instruments that we copy have themselves been elevated to celebrity status. I'd be curious if someone has Mr. Pratten's flute. These flutes, after all, were the discarded left behinds in the Classical flute world as the Boehm flute took over, and could be had cheap in the recent past.
To the Irish musicians of the early 20th century, these made a good substitute for the pipes as one didn't have to muck with any reeds - just seal the annoying keys shut with resin - and cost nearly nothing to acquire! They just wanted to play music and have fun. To makers such as myself, these are the starting points of our designs, and we have restarted the evolutionary process after a long hiatus. I'll continue to use the labels in honor of these starting points.
Casey
Chambering is something I have never actually seen in any Rudall, out of the dozen or so that I have measured. The Rudalls that I base mine on are superior players, at least to me, and apparently didn't need it - or perhaps the British wouldn't export flutes with this feature. I am skeptical of the concept, suspecting that this is a belief based on something described in the Bate book or elsewhere, but not scientifically verifiable by direct evidence.
As to the labels that we use for these instruments or wines - I believe this serves a purpose. It would certainly be different if we were making violins for top orchestral players, and the market would demand a greater degree of accuracy in our labelling, ppeer reviewage, competitions, etc.. Thus instead of calling something based on a Strad, we would have to specify which Strad. Same with the Baroque flute world. But instead, the flutes we are making and discuss here go mostly to amateur and often beginning players for which these labels are more than adequate and useful. And few, if any, of the instruments that we copy have themselves been elevated to celebrity status. I'd be curious if someone has Mr. Pratten's flute. These flutes, after all, were the discarded left behinds in the Classical flute world as the Boehm flute took over, and could be had cheap in the recent past.
To the Irish musicians of the early 20th century, these made a good substitute for the pipes as one didn't have to muck with any reeds - just seal the annoying keys shut with resin - and cost nearly nothing to acquire! They just wanted to play music and have fun. To makers such as myself, these are the starting points of our designs, and we have restarted the evolutionary process after a long hiatus. I'll continue to use the labels in honor of these starting points.
Casey
As regards Rudall chambering, Mr Burns, when we read Carte around 1850 saying that his new cylindrical flute obviates the need for chambering I think we can take that as evidence of Rudall & Roses practice in construction.
NO ?
I don't know if your measurement techniques and measuring equipment will show these things.
I only picked up small points in passing to which you have given very informative and interesting replies, though quite irrelevant to the points I was making, which were of no great significance anyway.
Keep up the good work, even if Jim has to spen a whole year learning to get a decent D !
All the best in what sounds like a very dedicated workshop.
I was talking to Chris only five minutes ago. I should have asked him who it was he brought. Soon had the poor lad trembling !
American Flutemakers all look the same to me, I am afraid !
NO ?
I don't know if your measurement techniques and measuring equipment will show these things.
I only picked up small points in passing to which you have given very informative and interesting replies, though quite irrelevant to the points I was making, which were of no great significance anyway.
Keep up the good work, even if Jim has to spen a whole year learning to get a decent D !
All the best in what sounds like a very dedicated workshop.
I was talking to Chris only five minutes ago. I should have asked him who it was he brought. Soon had the poor lad trembling !
American Flutemakers all look the same to me, I am afraid !
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Casey Burns
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Just a footnote - as "never keep a lathe waiting"
Mr. Carte was perhaps a good marketer - as people still believe what he was saying 2 centuries later! One still has to look at the evidence scientifically, rather than believe spin and advertising. Its hard to base a design on spin and more reliable to base one on an actual instrument.
My wife Nancy pointed out that it would be more of a problem if some of us makers copied these original desgins faithfully, and then said that these designs were our very own inventions, giving no credit to the originals.
Casey
Mr. Carte was perhaps a good marketer - as people still believe what he was saying 2 centuries later! One still has to look at the evidence scientifically, rather than believe spin and advertising. Its hard to base a design on spin and more reliable to base one on an actual instrument.
My wife Nancy pointed out that it would be more of a problem if some of us makers copied these original desgins faithfully, and then said that these designs were our very own inventions, giving no credit to the originals.
Casey
You are far better off ploughing your own furrow, Mr Burns rather than looking over your shoulder into the past.
You will never produce your best work,I am sure, unless very loosely guided by the odd great maker.
( But anybody wanting to make keys should keep a nice Hudson around to remind them of what can be done. Mr Wilkes keeps my patent head Rudall & Rose by him for inspiration ! )
Good luck to you.
You will never produce your best work,I am sure, unless very loosely guided by the odd great maker.
( But anybody wanting to make keys should keep a nice Hudson around to remind them of what can be done. Mr Wilkes keeps my patent head Rudall & Rose by him for inspiration ! )
Good luck to you.
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Terry McGee
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Re: Flute stolen!! (Prague)
Hmmm, seems like railway stations might be a particularly risky place for flutes. One of "my" flutes was lifted at a station , if I remember correctly, in Amsterdam. The owner left his bag briefly on a bench beside his wife to go and check the departure board. Returning a few seconds later the bag was gone. He saw nothing, the wife saw nothing.spittle wrote: .... was stolen in the Prague Central train station ...
So they're out there, and they're slick. Don't give them an opportunity.
Terry
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rama
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hey andrew,andrewK wrote: Mr Burns. Is Chris Wilkes correct in telling me he brought you to see me many years ago before my horrid habit of flute collecting started ?
If it was you it would be nice to see you again.
Yon can measure more Prattens and Rudalls then. REAL ones. And nicer things as well.
i believe it was american flutemaker bryan byrne, not casey burns, that mr. wilkes brought to visit you. bryan has corrobrated the story about his visit.
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Casey Burns
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I for one haven't a clue what you mean.
I didn't know there was a confusion of Byrne and Burns over there !
Which is the good one, or are honours even ?
I am not into moderm makers much, except to put in my I-Spy book.
It is like twitching.
I have my Wilkes flutes and may get an Olwell one day just for comparison, or I may have a lucid interval and get rid of the lot.
I dread to think what Brian said, Rama !
How is the Wilkes/ Wylde coming along ?
Having Googled a little I see that the two of you are catering for different areas of the market so confusion will not be a problem I trust ( except for ignoramuses like me ).
As I shall never want either I don't care !
I didn't know there was a confusion of Byrne and Burns over there !
Which is the good one, or are honours even ?
I am not into moderm makers much, except to put in my I-Spy book.
It is like twitching.
I have my Wilkes flutes and may get an Olwell one day just for comparison, or I may have a lucid interval and get rid of the lot.
I dread to think what Brian said, Rama !
How is the Wilkes/ Wylde coming along ?
Having Googled a little I see that the two of you are catering for different areas of the market so confusion will not be a problem I trust ( except for ignoramuses like me ).
As I shall never want either I don't care !
Last edited by andrewK on Mon May 02, 2005 2:05 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Cathy Wilde
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