Initials I.N.

Ciaran · Post by **Ciaran** » Sun Aug 15, 2004 6:37 am

Following my last posting on the subject of Rudall Rose flutes marked with the initials I.N under the low C sharp key, I managed to get a photograph taken. Terry McGee has kindly hosted this on his site.

http://www.mcgee-flutes.com/Keymarks.htm

Do any Rudall Rose owners have this marking?
Do any other Flutes have this marking?
Does anyone know what the I.N stands for?

Hope I am not boring you with this!
Thanks,

Ciarán Somers.

pandscarr · Post by **pandscarr** » Mon Aug 16, 2004 9:19 am

Hi Ciaran,

I've been away on holiday and found your posting when I got back -

My 8-key Wylde has the same inscription on the low C# key - it looks identical to the picture that you've posted. I've been told it was made around 1843 - 53.

My guess is it's the silversmith's mark who made the keys but I'm surprised that more people haven't replied, as I hadn't thought it was all that rare.

regards,

Pamela

andrew · Post by **andrew** » Mon Aug 16, 2004 11:42 am

Pamela, your Rudall has the very same stamp, as has the identical Rudall owned by your repairman.

pandscarr · Post by **pandscarr** » Mon Aug 16, 2004 12:55 pm

Ahhh - my lovely Rudall, now that's a flute!

But, actually Andrew, it doesn't have the same marking - I looked, because I remembered having seen an I.N. on one of my flutes - but it turned out to be the Wylde.

Who knows, it might have been the same... and been worn away over the years, or during earlier repairs...

so what do you know about I.N.?

regards,

Pamela

andrew · Post by **andrew** » Mon Aug 16, 2004 1:18 pm

Ah then I have been misinformed .It is however identical to one so marked, which is within 2 of the number of your flute.Have a look at some of the other keys.
This is the wrong forum for a serious discussion on old English flutes and their makers. These people don't know, don't understand, and don't care. Pearls before swine and so forth !

RudallRose · Post by **RudallRose** » Mon Aug 16, 2004 3:30 pm

These people don't know, don't understand, and don't care.

And there it is, dear board members.
I'm sorry you think that, Andrew. The members of this board are a lot more intelligent than you seem to give credit.

Moving on...

Pamela, I'd be interested to be sure whether your I.N is initialled with two periods (as in, "I.N."). Or, like Ciaran, the letters have merely a single dot between them, such as I*N, and not like a period which would fall at the bottom or base of the letters.

I believe it's the latter (I*N), based on the two dozen or so other flutes with the same markings which I have seen. If so, can we be sure it's I*N and not N*I?
Too, on the woodenflute list I've noted the possibility (isn't it?) that the I*N (or N*I, if you will) are actually last names, such as the RR on Larry Mallette's Rudall keys, rather than the A.L. of Alex Liddle, which are clearly initials (and quite nicely are not invertable letters and couldn't be read upside down and backward as I*N can be).

Bottom line, it's not so out of the question for Andrew's earlier thought that the "I" in "I*N" could be Ingram (and the N, perhaps, the silver stamp hallmark that was registered at the time, a name Andrew noted in an earlier post.). AFter all, Ingram did work at the Villiers' address where other great Rudall-type folks and suppliers made their workshop in those 1830s-plus (which I have lovingly dubbed the Goodlad Flutemaker's Guild).
Did the "N" man work there as well?
Mr Wylde did.
Hmmm

I know this is a terribly taxing bit of minutiae to many of you, but for us "mystery-mongers," your old flutes can help with some pretty critical information. So you help is always appreciated.

DM

andrew · Post by **andrew** » Mon Aug 16, 2004 3:40 pm

What the devil does it have to do with intelligence ?
Many very " intelligent " people have narrow interests.
When I mentioned the problem to you months ago you had no interest or knowledge to add to the matter.
Many of these marks could pass for I M , being ill formed which could be for Ingram & Morland.
I am advised that my George & Manby is too well made to be by Wylde, but I am not too sure about that ( It was included among the few of my flutes illustrated on the " what cocus looks like " thread ).
I have long wondered if Ingram & Wylde worked together, Ingram making the keys, and Wylde the woodwork.

andrew · Post by **andrew** » Mon Aug 16, 2004 4:01 pm

I think that R R appears on several of my Rudall & Rose flutes.I don't have them handy.
I N appears on all grades of Rudalls.
Pity Mr M. didn't tell us about the 2 dozen I N stamps he has seen when discussing them before. Perhaps he will share with us, after this splendid revelation, what makes of flutes he has seen them on.It would then contribute to the list he has recently expressed an interest in seeing !

andrew · Post by **andrew** » Mon Aug 16, 2004 4:36 pm

andrew · Post by **andrew** » Mon Aug 16, 2004 4:46 pm

RudallRose · Post by **RudallRose** » Mon Aug 16, 2004 5:46 pm

oh brother, here we go again

:roll:

sorry, folks

jim stone · Post by **jim stone** » Mon Aug 16, 2004 7:13 pm

It will end when you don't respond.
The initial post to which you did respond
spoke for itself and would have spoken
louder alone.

RudallRose · Post by **RudallRose** » Mon Aug 16, 2004 7:37 pm

Well said, Jim
and Thanks.

pandscarr · Post by **pandscarr** » Tue Aug 17, 2004 5:41 am

Getting back to the topic... I've looked again and my Wylde is marked I∙N or N∙I, and neither way is more obvious than the other. So, a mystery still...

RudallRose · Post by **RudallRose** » Tue Aug 17, 2004 9:51 am

would help if someone provided Cliff Notes back then!
My own two flutes with the I*N mark are on the C# key as well.
Very clear and quite identifiable as I*N

Someday, maybe we'll know.

dm