3 questions of tongue in flute playing

[Eldarion]

Hi guys, I was wondering if any of you can help me with any/all of the following questions regarding the tongue in IRflute playing.

1) I have become very fond of triple tonguing as an ornament in my whistle playing and use it often. But how do I triple tongue on flute? I have heard Kevin Crawford and Seamus Egan do it so I know it is feasible. But I've been trying it on my borrowed Boehm and I can't get the notes of the 3tongue clear (esp last 2). Its definitely harder than doing on whistle, but 3tonguing is so nice I wouldn't want to give it up in my flute playing.

Incidentally, for those who have the madfortrad flute tutorial, is this technique covered there?

2) "Tonguing is not a thing you do when you play the flute Irish style." To what extent is this statement true? (sounds like a GP essay question doesn't it?)
Are there no IR-flute players who tongue at all?

3) Where is the tongue's default position when playing the flute? Sometimes I catch myself using the tongue to support my lower lip to get a better tone, but as I have never read anywhere that this is to be encouraged, I change back to stretching my lips a little tighter, and putting my tongue at the back of my lower teeth (handy for 3tonguing). Is putting your tongue behind the lower teeth a viable option?

Thanks!

[ErikT]

Eldarion,

As I'm not an expert at IrTrad I'll leave the answer to #2 to someone else, but I think that I can help with questions #1 and #3.

When I'm playing in a more fluid style (ie. not tonguing - much of what I play that is Irish) I float my tongue near the bottom of my mouth nearly touching my bottom teeth. This allows me to really open up my mouth cavity. You can use the DEEP sound "Ahhh" said from the back of your throat to get an idea of how the tongue might feel.

When I do need to tongue I can quickly flick the back of my upper teeth (actually just above your teeth). I use the syllable "Tah" as a teaching aid for this - that is saying "Tah" without the vocalization. To move to a triple tongue, you can practice using "Tah Kah Tuh".

The first "Tah" is the tip of your tongue on the back of your upper front teeth (again, actually just above the teeth)

The "Kah" is the back of your tongue against the roof of your mouth.

And the final "Tuh" is the tip of your tongue against your upper front teeth - the "uh" moves your tongue back to its starting position by the end of the triple tongue.

Others will use different 'sounds' to learn the triple tongue but the all accomplish the same thing. Also, you may want to try this technique with your whistle; you may find that once you get good at it, it will allow for much quicker and more fluid triplets.

Good Good Good luck with your tripling.

Erik

p.s.

As for putting your tongue behind your lower lip, this is a position that I would not recommend developing as it can severly limit your ability for flexible articulations as well as the ability to open up your throat.

<font size=-1>[ This Message was edited by: ErikT on 2001-12-26 03:10 ]</font>

[RudallRose]

ah, yes, triplets
some say forget them....others are masters at them......equally good advice
anyway....triplets no matter how they're done should be fluid and even.....three notes in the span of one.....the tonguing, however, is a matter of taste and how easily you accommodate one method.
There is the trumpet (and fifer's) method: Tut-Tuk-Kut
Amazing for articulation, very staccato effect.....not terribly pleasing on the flute, however.
Some advocate using double-tonguing, just overlapping the syllables.....thusly: Tuk-Kut-Tut (1st triplet) Tuk-Kut-Tut (successive triplet).....I always found this one a bit confounding on the tongue. Still some do it quite well.
Then there's my favorite, an old flute techinique I learned while studying Boehm flute many years ago....it's a softer approach and nice on the flute:
De-Ge-De (where the "e" is a soft e, not long sounding....as in "definitely" for the first "e" of the word.....some use Di-Gi-Di, where "i" is as in the word "ditty" or "disable.")
It's a soft tongue approach, largely off the roof of the mouth rather than the teeth or lips.
Hope that helps.

[CraigMc]

I wanted to resurrect this one because I am starting to actually attempt to implement rolls and cuts and all that. Would you use a roll the same place you would use a triple tongue. I am currently working on the Mist-Covered Mountain.

T:Mist Covered Mountain, The
EAAABd|eAAAGE|~G3GAB|dBAGED|EAAABd|eAAB^cd|efg dBG|1BAGA2G:|2BAGA2a||
agea2b|ageedB|AGEG2A|BABdeg|agea2b|ageedB|AGEG2A|BAGA3|
agea2b|ageedB|AGEG2A|BABGED|EDEG2A|BAGABd|efgdBG|BAGA2G||

I know that the “~G” is a long-roll on G but there is also a AAA in the beginning. Couldn’t I triple tongue or long-roll this A as well? Could I also roll or triple tongue the “G2” in the third measure as well?

How can you tell the difference between a long-roll and triple tongue when listening?

Thanks,

- Craig


<font size=-1>[ This Message was edited by: CraigMc on 2002-03-18 16:40 ]</font>

[JohnPalmer]

When I triple tongue, I just use double tonguing, t, k, t, / k, t, k. I don't think it matters, as long as no one can tell, and you don't get messed up. I also used to practice tonguing with just the ka sound. When the ka is clear, everything should work for you. JP

[CraigMc]

But when do you triple tongue? Do you use it to replace a roll?

[eskin]

Triplets generally replace a quarter note or two eight notes, so where you would use a short roll, you could do a tongued triplet...

[CraigMc]

Then what is triple tonguing?