Help!!! Yet another pain thread

[meemtp]

Hi all,

I'm having some frustrating pain issues related to my flute playing. I have pain starting just above my right wrist that radiates up to my forearm, and the muscles below my shoulder blades get very stiff and form knots. I have tried all the positional suggestions mentioned on threads in this forum as well as from other sources, yet the pain persists. My playing position is relaxed, seems to not promote tension, and my right wrist is straight, using the pads of my fingers. Oddly, my left wrist, which SHOULD be uncomfortable because of the bend, only occaisionally bothers me, and very little at that. Also odd, is that playing the fiddle, which many people find uncomfortable, doesn't bother me at all. Upper body conditioning shouldn't be the issue, since as an athlete, I regularly do strength and flexibilty training. I played the flute for 3 years without pain, before giving it up a couple years ago for similar pain, so I wouldn't think it's a case of the body trying to adapt. I've not had any injuries or such. The only possible reason I can come up with, is that my current flute, a Seery, is about 20% heavier than a wood flute. I find it hard to believe though, that it makes that much of a difference, since it's still pretty light compared to a Saxaphone or the Highland pipes, and the fact that I have a lot of upper body strength. I'd sure hate to have to give up my flute playing again.

Corin

[jim stone]

Yes, that sounds frustrating. The obvious suggestion,
which you've thought of, I would expect, is
to try a very light flute and see what happens.
The Sweetheart flutes are about as light as
flutes get; the maple D is a good flute, much
fun.

There are 'hand therapists', who specialize in
hand, arm, shoulder problems; seeing one might
be a good idea.
Again an obvious suggestion is to vary your
right hand position. Maybe something less
standard will help. At one point I went so
far as starting to relearn the whistle lefty.

[Prospero]

Hey Corin,

Sorry to hear about the pain issue. You mentioned in another post you were tackling pipes in addition to flute and fiddle -- I wonder if you have some kinda cummulative tension thing happening that only manifests noticeably as discomfort when playing flute? Just speculating of course .

It also sounds like you're confident its not a muscle issue -- that is, you are relaxed and conditioned enough to not cramp up -- so there may be a nerve issue, which I gather is more serious, so I second Jim's suggestion you have it checked. Again, not an expert here.

Lastly, based on my own limited experience I find that a stealth source of tension can sometimes be unexpectedly far removed from the pain of the tension, the 'knot" as it were, if that makes sense -- say, for example if your head joint isn't rotated to an optimal spot, you might be compensating with undue pressure from your right thumb (you know, the whole three contact point thing) which in turn might cause your right forearm to tighten up. As an aside, Grey Larson describes two different "standard" right hand grips in his new book, one with the pinky doing most of the supporting work and the other with the thumb -- I wonder if switching your right hand grip might help? That book is a must have

Good luck anyway .

Alan

[Leonard]

Hi Corin!

I had this kind of pain (not as hard as you though) and I associated it to the computer mouse (in addition to the flute playing probably). Well, I first got a mouse pad, then learned all the short cuts possible and tried to pull my hand of the mouse as often as possible and strech. And this, all together, helped a lot.

But obviously, if you don't work at a computer or never use any, well ... don't learn shortcuts ...

But after I read the " Athletic Musician " (very interesting book by the way, available at Amazone), I would'nt go easy and would see someone expert.

Good luck!

[Ceara]

Hi

I'm sorry to hear about your pain. It's no fun at all.

I wanted to share my story with you so that you might check it out and eliminate that from the list of possibilities of what might be wrong.

A few years ago I had bad, horrible pain in my right wrist. I qualified for workers' compensation (since it occured from repetitive motion at work).

Anyhow, I got to visit some physical therapists and they made me go through a whole regiment and I still had pain, which troubled them, so I had some massage work on my right arm to try to find what was causing the pain.

Turns out, it was the muscle the runs from the thumb, across the forearm and attaches to the elbow joint. There was a huge knot in it. I almost knocked the therapist silly when she found the spot. LOL

So they did this to me - an ice pack within a pillow case, placed on my forearm and wrist for 15 minutes or so until I couldn't feel my skin any more and the whole forearm felt numb. Then I had a special massage on my arm to get rid of the knot. It was a huge one.

Now when I have pain I do some stretching exercises and I can control the pain and keep it from flaring up. It comes up a lot while typing on the computer, playing guitar and flute.

Find yourself a good massage therapist that can feel around your muscle tissue and see if he/she can find anything. Maybe it's something deep within that needs to be worked out.

I'm not an expert, just trying to be helpful.

For a good massage oil, I suggest almond oil as it's odorless and soaks in the skin quickly with no greasy feeling. I use it in my soapmaking and for muscle massage with a bit of essential oil blend drops in it.

Ceara

[meemtp]

Thanks all for your input.

[gcollins]

You might check out a concertina.

[meemtp]

6 holes is bad enough, 30 buttons worse. Actually I'm too much of a masochist for that, that's why I'm starting on the pipes

[ChrisA]

Hi Corin!

I had this kind of pain (not as hard as you though) and I associated it to the computer mouse (in addition to the flute playing probably).

...

I concur... I've had, and many people I know have had, this kind of pain and found that it was mouse-related. The most basic thing that helps me is to keep the mouse far away and the
keyboard close - ideally, resting in my lap; that reduces mouse-reliance. I've also noticed that since switching to an optical mouse, I haven't had -any- occurances of the pain (which, with regular stretching and care with habits can be vastly reduced). I think that the problematic mouse-balls lead us to clutch the mouse to tightly and grind it into the mouse pad in an attempt to get it to behave, and the optical mouse, since it 'just works', can be handled lightly and without so much strain.

Other people have, with good effect, switched to touchpads or trackballs.
In short, conventional computer mice are evil. If you must use one, get into a regular stretching regimen for wrists and forearms - athletic upper-body stretches tend not to concentrate much on that, since it's back/abdomen/biceps that do all the 'work' in athletics. Not so on the computer.

And good luck!

--ChrisA

[Dana]

I agree that mousing can be a major source of wrist pain. I've tried several kinds of mice and trackballs. So far, I've liked the Kensington Expert Mouse the best for preventing strain on my right wrist. It's expensive, but it's so smooth and precise, that for me, it was well worth it. The pain from mousing can exacerbate any strain you might get from flute playing, but I really think your right hand, as long as you keep your wrist relatively straight, shouldn't be a source of pain.

As far as pain between the shoulder blades, when you've figured out the answer, I want to know about it! I don't get it from a little bit of playing, but when I've done series of rehearsals and concerts, I may. This seems to be a common affliction for flutists and violinists. I guess it just ain't natural to hold your arms up in the air for hours, with your neck rotated toward the left. H'mmm.

Dana

[peeplj]

Just a thought on the weight of flutes:

Depending on what exactly is causing your pain, a lighter flute might make it worse.

When the arthritis in my hands flares (as when the weather changes), I usually wind up playing M&E polymer flutes because they are heavier, and they seem easier to control and better balanced on those days.

The lightest flutes, the Hamilton and the Seery, are harder to control on those days.

By the way, I've read several posts about Seery flutes being heavy. Mine is not; it weighs only a little more than the Hamilton.

--James

[Leonard]

Dana, few months ago I added a topic about upper back pain and you told me to buy the "Athetic Musician" witch I did. Very good book on the topic.

Since then, I saw a physiologist about 6 times. He related my pain to the fact I've been working at the computer with my head down for months because I had to look at the keyboard. So first I started writing without looking at the keyboard, and started upper back stretchs exercises added with streching manipulations by the physio.
Well, I can't say everything changes radically but it's going slowly better. In fact, I never had to stop playing because of the pain since then. Witch is a good start!

Best wishes!

[Hoovorff]

Several people have mentioned doing hand stretches. Could you be more specific and describe some of these exercises?

Thanks, Jeanie

[Leonard]

Hi Jeanie!

For hand streches (actually forearm streches) what I do is hold my arm (for exemple the right one) straight at the front of me (horizontally) with the hand up like I'm doing "stop!" and with the left hand pull the right hand back to me streching the muscles below the forearm.

After that I do the same thing with the left hand. Then I do the same thing with the hands down to strech the muscles on top of the forearm.

For the finger stretch the fingers, do a little search on the forum, I remember seeing things about it.

Good luck!

Speak friend and enter.

[ChrisA]

Stretches... the most important thing about stretches is not to hurt yourself. There's always some sensations, but it's important to distinguish between the possibly uncomfortable pull of a good stretch and the pain of overstretching. If it brings tears to your eyes, yes, it's overstretching! A good stretch is for ten or fifteen full seconds, then relax for the same amount of time or a bit more, and then another ten-fifteen second stretch. The first stretch loosens up the immediate tension, and the second stretch should go a little further and work on increasing flexibility (and further loosen the current tension...)

The stretches I do are, =
hands straight out in front of me, spread fingers wide;
hands out, bend hands up and back (fingers -straight-);
hands out, bend hounds down (fingers -straight-);
hands behind head, staying in contact with head, bend elbows back (fingers interlaced, for me,
but probably better would be overlapping but not interlaced.)

I don't, generally, use anything but a limbs own power to stretch it, though sometimes
I do individual-finger stretches using the other hand to manipulate them.

This all derived from an office health/stretches flyer put out by some concerned probably governmental organization, but I don't have the original in front of me, and I am not a
physician or a phys ed teacher.

Glucosamine has also been known to help some people - it's a nutritional-supplement that is supposed to help rebuild joint connective tissue. We all started taking it when we realized how much it was helping a 19-year old cat that could barely walk at first and was highly mobile within a few weeks. However, glucosamine only helps heal damage - it doesn't prevent it, and it doesn't substitute for stretching - but it can hasten recovery. (And, I suspect, will one day
be considered a 'vitamin' and have an RDA, but today it isn't and doesn't.)


--ChrisA