Michael Grinter flutes keyless opinions?

Steampacket · Post by **Steampacket** » Tue Sep 16, 2003 5:39 am

I'm also considering ordering a Michael Grinter keyless D flute as the waiting list is much shorter than Chris Wilkes. From what I understand both Wilkes and Grinter are making good quality instruments. I recently two days ago played a new Grinter 8-key flute in D which was extremely easy to play, with a loud clear sound, prehaps too clear for my taste, but even so it was a fine instrument. Do Grinter keyless D flutes have a strong bottom end, and has anyone noticed any typical characteristics of Grinter's keyless D flutes? They are prehaps like Wilkes', just good instruments which is fair enough.

The Grinter keyless at 1050 US dollars (930 euros) seems is more expensive that a keyless Wilkes at 440 GBP (624 euros) if this is indeed the correct price today of a Wilkes keyless.

Gordon · Post by **Gordon** » Tue Sep 16, 2003 6:43 am

I doubt Michael's flutes would be all that much different without keys than with; this holds true for most makers. The keyless versions are made with the same specs, and quality, of the keyed flute, sans keys. Grinter's flutes tend, by reputation, to be truer to period classical flutes than the deliberately-modified-for-Irish flutes, and therefore have a purer, easier tone. This is probably true, then, for his keyless.
That said, I would contact him directly and ask. There will be no doubt about the quality of the flute produced, but whether it's just what you're looking for is another matter. If money is the issue, there are certainly competitive or lesser-priced flutes of similar quality that ARE made for the low end power you seem to be looking for.
Gordon

Michel · Post by **Michel** » Tue Sep 16, 2003 7:55 am

I think you wouldn't be disappointed either with Grinter and Wilkes,as they
are both great craftsmans who build instuments in the genuine tradition of the old english makers. Mike Grinter's flutes are paricularly clear and they have a fast response, wich personally I like a lot.Never found a well balanced flute with a crisper articulation, middle D short crans sound like a dozen gun shots! They haven't, in my opinion, a very loud volume, but they are perfectly audible even in a big session,when played in the right
way.His flutes are very in high demand in Ireland nowadays, and he is very often there. I can't spend much words on Wilkes flute,as I haven't
tried one yet.They seem to have more volume and a different caracter.
However that difference in price is a thing that I don't understand personally, as both instruments are in the same quality league.
Awhile ago I was thinking about buying myself a 6key Bb flute from Grinter, but his asking price is too much for me, at least at this moment,as I'm 22.
Last but not least I would like to tell you that being to hurried is a bad thing when buying instruments (and Jesus I was very hurried in the past,and made some mistakes in that field!).Difference in waiting list
between a (keyless) Grinter and a Wilkes isn't too much. A friend of mine
has recently received a keyless Wilkes, and he told me that waiting time was only a little more than an year.Buy the flute that is closer to your ideal!
Ciao
Michel

spittle · Post by **spittle** » Tue Sep 16, 2003 8:16 am

I've been been speaking with Michael about a keyless D flute as well steampacket, and I can tell you his website is in need of updating. A keyless blackwood flute in D is currently 1200 Euros if that makes much of a difference to you.

I believe the same is true for Wilkes (re: out of date website), but I never got a current price from him as he was just finishing up a batch of keyless flutes which were already sold and he wouldn't be making any more for a 'few years'. How's that for job security!

Anyway, looking along those same lines as Wilkes and Grinter myself, I was lead to investigate Tom Aebi of Swizterland after recommendations of a couple people on this board. His workmanship appears awesome from the pictures he's sent me and he is a very knowledgeable and helpful guy. Brad Hurley for one, has seen one of his flutes and says its definitely in the same class as his own Wilkes. Aebi's prices are also very competetive consdering the class of flute he makes. I'll be getting on his waiting list in a matter of days

Hope this helps!

Regards,
- Ryan

Steampacket · Post by **Steampacket** » Tue Sep 16, 2003 8:56 am

Thanks for the views on Grinter's flutes. Prehaps Tom Aebi's keyless flutes would be worth looking into then. I was impressed with the ease by which I could play the Grinter 8-key, the notes rang out almost without effort, but as said the tone wasn't quite what I would wish for as I play only Irish traditional and want a more sexy, honking, not so sweet sound, a "Conal O'Grada sound". That's what I'm aiming for. A Wilkes is first choice but 7-8 years wait is too long as Chris has said he has other instruments to get done first, before starting on a keyless batch again, if I've understood rightly. A Sam Murray keyless could be nice but Sam's delivery times seem to be haphazard at best. A year for a Grinter is tempting despite the price. Is it possible to make a Grinter sound more low down prehaps with the right technique?

spittle · Post by **spittle** » Tue Sep 16, 2003 9:08 am

Oh, another thing Steam, I forgot to mention is that Aebi makes in addition to a traditional small-holed R&R, a 'large-holed R&R' flute which is more in-tune for Irish music (per his literature) and likely would exhibit more of a 'bark' than a traditional small-holed design.

I'm not aware that Grinter makes a 'large-holed' R&R flute.

The usual caveat of 'the player making the sound as much as the flute's design' applies, of course.

Regards,
- r

BMFW · Post by **BMFW** » Tue Sep 16, 2003 9:20 am

Steampacket wrote: I play Irish traditional and want a more sexy, honking, not so sweet sound, a "Conal O'Grada sound". That's what I'm aiming for.

Why not consider a Hamilton or a Cotter, both fairly well renowned for being able to produce the tone you are after. Both very reasonably priced and both with short (8 month or so) waiting times for keyless. I've played both (for short periods only, I should point out) and if that's the tone you're looking for, both flutes will give you it by the bucket load!

Just a thought,

Graham

AaronMalcomb · Post by **AaronMalcomb** » Tue Sep 16, 2003 9:23 am

Steampacket wrote: I was impressed with the ease by which I could play the Grinter 8-key, the notes rang out almost without effort, but as said the tone wasn't quite what I would wish for as I play only Irish traditional and want a more sexy, honking, not so sweet sound, a "Conal O'Grada sound". That's what I'm aiming for.

Ask the man himself. Conal has posted here and is very helpful. He played a Rudall with Fentum head on his CD but he now plays a Hamilton if I'm not mistaken. Ask him anyways. A Hamilton is definitely less expensive than Wilkes or Grinter, has a shorter waiting list, and they are engineered for traditional Irish music.

Cheers,
Aaron

Steampacket · Post by **Steampacket** » Tue Sep 16, 2003 9:50 am

"Why not consider a Hamilton or a Cotter, both fairly well renowned for being able to produce the tone you are after. Both very reasonably priced and both with short (8 month or so) waiting times for keyless. " Graham.

I have tried a keyless Hamilton about a year or so ago, and didn't find it easy to blow, and I wasn't impressed. I also thought the flute was a bit roughly finished - Could have been my embouchure back then of course I didn't play as much flute as I have been doing recently. I've no idea how old the Hamilton was that I tried but I didn't get that "kick" I got from trying the Wilkes keyless & the Grinter keyed flute. I know this is hard and subjective as everyone has different preferences, lips etc. None of the instruments mentioned are mediocre, but it's still interesting and helpful all the same to read the opinions.

BMFW · Post by **BMFW** » Tue Sep 16, 2003 9:59 am

Steampacket wrote: Could have been my embouchure back then of course I didn't play as much flute as I have been doing recently

If you feel you have improved recently then it would be well worth seeking out examples of all the available flutes in the market place before making a decision - it's a lot of money to spend without a bit of research, although I know it's not always easy to find and compare various flutes.

I know this may not be the situation in your case, but it is easy to be flattered by a flute that plays easily and for this to cloud your judgement. Of all the makers mentioned, no-one makes a "difficult" flute as such, just flutes that require a different way of blowing.

Good luck in the search.

Graham

whamlyn · Post by **whamlyn** » Tue Sep 16, 2003 11:48 am

Hi Steampacket,

If you like Conal O'Grada's tone you won't be disappointed with a Hamilton flute (which Conal also plays). I got mine about a month ago, hand delivered no less, and it is an awesome instrument to play. It takes a good tight emboucher to hit the bottom notes well (it took me a couple of weeks) but the extra effort is worth it. I had been playing an M & E for a good while up until then and for the life of me couldn't hit the bottom D and E notes on a friend's Hamilton. They aren't super easy flutes to play but just take a bit of getting used to. When Hammy gave it a blow I was sure he was going to rattle the thing apart, his volume and tone are amazing!

The finish on my flute, and the three other Hamilton's I've played (+ one Rudall and Rose restored by Hammy), are all nicely done. The joints are all snug, the tone holes have a comfortably smoothed edge, and the block mounts on mine are all very nicely carved. Of course, all those things are secondary to the tone.

It is definately a flute to consider based on the description of what you're after. I'd offer up some photos and soundclips but I don't have a scanner at the moment and about 90% of the tone disappears through my $5 PC mic. If you check out the links below, you will see the man himself, and some friends of mine, playing at the Newfoundland and Labrador Folk Festival last month.

www.sjfac.nf.net/fest2003/photos/main.html
www.sjfac.nf.net/fest2003/photos/instrument.html
http://home.cablerocket.com/~gstrong/flutestuff.htm

Anyway, that's my $0.02.

All the best,
Wes

shoner · Post by **shoner** » Tue Sep 16, 2003 11:52 am

Mr. Grinter is now making a Pratten model in addition to his RR design.

MurphyStout · Post by **MurphyStout** » Tue Sep 16, 2003 12:42 pm

Eldarion has an almost new Grinter he is selling to make room for his olwell, I don't know if he'll read this but you could ask him about it. It's a keyless Blackwood D.

chas · Post by **chas** » Tue Sep 16, 2003 1:02 pm

Regarding the remarks about Grinters having a pure sound: Isn't it easier to dirty up the sound of a clean-sounding flute than to clean up the sound of a dirty-sounding flute?

Some well-known IrTrad players play Grinters and get a big Irish sound out of them; plenty of early/baroque/classical players get a nice pure albeit woody sound from them.

Michel · Post by **Michel** » Tue Sep 16, 2003 1:43 pm

Spittle wrote:
"Oh, another thing Steam, I forgot to mention is that Aebi makes in addition to a traditional small-holed R&R, a 'large-holed R&R' flute which is more in-tune for Irish music (per his literature) and likely would exhibit more of a 'bark' than a traditional small-holed design.

I'm not aware that Grinter makes a 'large-holed' R&R flute.

The usual caveat of 'the player making the sound as much as the flute's design' applies, of course."

Ryan, I think you made some little confusion here! Aebi makes two R&R
models:a large holed model and a medium holed model.Both models can be made either with the original tuning (that is perfect for people who uses
very often the third octave or for people who plays classical music) or with
a modern, more straight tuning (wich is perfect if you play ITM or other
kind of folk music).The m.h. is easier, the l.h. is less easy but louder,and,
in my opinion, more flexible and tonally complex.
I play an Aebi and it is absolutely F A B U L O U S !
Ciao
Michel
ps Steampacket: How do you can find "sexy" Conal O'Grada's tone? Maybe Italians have a different idea of what is sexy...