And anyway, they're not in D.
Stuart
Real Rudall on eBay
Hello.
Sturob may be ,forgetting that Rudall Rose ,& Carte , like Rudall & Rose ,made flutes in different grades at widely differing prices .The keywork and prettyness varied accordingly.Perhaps it would be better if people when buying in the antique (art ? ) market remember to make the distinction .A R,R,&C flute of mine is particularly pretty .
Perhaps Mr Migoya can tell us if Rose ever made keys.
I imaging that one of the main reasons that people (like me) who collect old flutes is that the two or perhaps three modern makers who do fine work have such lengthy waiting lists .
Sturob may be ,forgetting that Rudall Rose ,& Carte , like Rudall & Rose ,made flutes in different grades at widely differing prices .The keywork and prettyness varied accordingly.Perhaps it would be better if people when buying in the antique (art ? ) market remember to make the distinction .A R,R,&C flute of mine is particularly pretty .
Perhaps Mr Migoya can tell us if Rose ever made keys.
I imaging that one of the main reasons that people (like me) who collect old flutes is that the two or perhaps three modern makers who do fine work have such lengthy waiting lists .
Ruddall auction ending early
I hope that Beowulf doesn't have to experience an Ebay auction ending early to learn how annoying it is .It happened to me once. Luckily the (naughty)bidder didn't pay and I got the flute anyway, -A freak .If it happened in the case of the Rudall Rose &Carte we must just guess what it might have made if the normal bidding had run it's course .
Wouldn't it be nice if people didn't keep calling copies Rudalls ?
Perhaps I should use your forum if I decide to sell the odd Rudall in the future.No premature happenings then!
Wouldn't it be nice if people didn't keep calling copies Rudalls ?
Perhaps I should use your forum if I decide to sell the odd Rudall in the future.No premature happenings then!
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sturob
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He (Dave) probably can. Dave is the one who pointed out to me the initials on the keywork.andrew wrote:Perhaps Mr Migoya can tell us if Rose ever made keys.
Your point is well-taken, though, about the lines of "trim" on the Rudalls. I didn't mean for that to be insulting; I do think the "look" changed a little over the years, overall, and I happen to like the older ones. Eh, it's just like cars.
Stuart
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RudallRose
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Okay
Point of clarity here.
I've never said, nor indicated, that John Mitchell Rose ever made keys.
What I DID say, was the keys on one flute (of which I've yet to see the photos, but was told they had the mark on the underside of the shank) were stamped "RR" or "R&R" (don't recall which).
I found that very unusual as none of the Rudalls I'd ever seen or researched had this marking. While many other flutemakers' key work had some mark on them to indicate who made them (our illustrious A.L. is one), RR never seemed to have the mark.
So....my deduction, although based solely on conjecture, was that the keys were made in the shop. By whom? Who knows. But why else stamp the keys?
So....that's the accurate account of that. It's a puzzle still w/o real answer.
Regarding David Levine's post about the "value" of the flutes.....it's an opinion. I won't disregard it, or discount it at all. David's a fine collector himself, with several Rudalls as well as modern-made flutes, Olwell among his favorites.
(By the way....as far as I know, Molloy does play an Olwell occassionally....but mostly still plays his favorite and favored Boosey-Hawkes Pratten....and his Bb flute was a Hawkes in the Siccama-key style)
Do the old flutes play better than or as well as the new ones? Many of them yes. All of them? No. That's because there was no standard of pitch as there is today.
But why, then, are all the makers of today advertising, measuring, copying, replicating, etc., the flutes of yesterday? Why do they sell a "Rudall & Rose" model, or a "Pratten model?"
There's a Nicholson style, a Clementi copy, etc etc.
There surely must be some redemptive value otherwise today's makers would be copying each other's work instead!
As I've mentioned to others, value is relative not just to the instrument as a playable object, but its collectibility. Want an Olwell? Order one.
Want a genuine Rudall? Find one.
Want one that plays in today's standard, and does it well? Look harder.
But they DO exist.
Over 50 years, R&R made about 7200 of their simple-system flutes of 8 (or so) keys. That's 144 on average a year. About a third are now in museums (of those still in existence which, by long guess is roughly 1500-2000). Patrick's a young guy. He's got many years left to make great flutes.
Did the key work and body designs change at RR? Of course they did. Different people were making the instruments over time. In fact, when Wylde left the shop but continued to deliver flutes on contract, the foot key work along went back to the overlap rather than crescent. Too, German Silver came into vogue because of expense.
The short-F key touches alone have about 5 different designs. The cups went through about as many morphs. Rings? Too many to describe here.
Anyway....I hope that clarifies a couple things and obfuscates even more. That's the beauty of working on and researching these flutes. It's history, which is always an intrigue....and a mystery.
Point of clarity here.
I've never said, nor indicated, that John Mitchell Rose ever made keys.
What I DID say, was the keys on one flute (of which I've yet to see the photos, but was told they had the mark on the underside of the shank) were stamped "RR" or "R&R" (don't recall which).
I found that very unusual as none of the Rudalls I'd ever seen or researched had this marking. While many other flutemakers' key work had some mark on them to indicate who made them (our illustrious A.L. is one), RR never seemed to have the mark.
So....my deduction, although based solely on conjecture, was that the keys were made in the shop. By whom? Who knows. But why else stamp the keys?
So....that's the accurate account of that. It's a puzzle still w/o real answer.
Regarding David Levine's post about the "value" of the flutes.....it's an opinion. I won't disregard it, or discount it at all. David's a fine collector himself, with several Rudalls as well as modern-made flutes, Olwell among his favorites.
(By the way....as far as I know, Molloy does play an Olwell occassionally....but mostly still plays his favorite and favored Boosey-Hawkes Pratten....and his Bb flute was a Hawkes in the Siccama-key style)
Do the old flutes play better than or as well as the new ones? Many of them yes. All of them? No. That's because there was no standard of pitch as there is today.
But why, then, are all the makers of today advertising, measuring, copying, replicating, etc., the flutes of yesterday? Why do they sell a "Rudall & Rose" model, or a "Pratten model?"
There's a Nicholson style, a Clementi copy, etc etc.
There surely must be some redemptive value otherwise today's makers would be copying each other's work instead!
As I've mentioned to others, value is relative not just to the instrument as a playable object, but its collectibility. Want an Olwell? Order one.
Want a genuine Rudall? Find one.
Want one that plays in today's standard, and does it well? Look harder.
But they DO exist.
Over 50 years, R&R made about 7200 of their simple-system flutes of 8 (or so) keys. That's 144 on average a year. About a third are now in museums (of those still in existence which, by long guess is roughly 1500-2000). Patrick's a young guy. He's got many years left to make great flutes.
Did the key work and body designs change at RR? Of course they did. Different people were making the instruments over time. In fact, when Wylde left the shop but continued to deliver flutes on contract, the foot key work along went back to the overlap rather than crescent. Too, German Silver came into vogue because of expense.
The short-F key touches alone have about 5 different designs. The cups went through about as many morphs. Rings? Too many to describe here.
Anyway....I hope that clarifies a couple things and obfuscates even more. That's the beauty of working on and researching these flutes. It's history, which is always an intrigue....and a mystery.
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sturob
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Well, the John Rose thing was something I said, based on what is apparently a misunderstanding. I am misremembering something Dave said to me, I suppose.
Honestly, I was so convinced that was what he said that I posted that comment with relative impunity. Seems I was wrong, though!
Oh, well!
I did always think it was weird, though, since the keys I can see are stamped "RR" and not "JMR;" I thought maybe that Dave had taken them apart and seen something I couldn't see.
Apologies.
Stuart
Honestly, I was so convinced that was what he said that I posted that comment with relative impunity. Seems I was wrong, though!
Oh, well!
I did always think it was weird, though, since the keys I can see are stamped "RR" and not "JMR;" I thought maybe that Dave had taken them apart and seen something I couldn't see.
Apologies.
Stuart
Chris Wilkes says he has seen plenty of R&R stamps but no JMR .Thats why I was so surprised to hear about a John Rose stamp .
Does Mr Migoya have any evidence that Wylde or anybody else was ever employed in house by Rudall & Rose .Mr Bigio who has been researching extensively on the matter thinks not .The "from Rudall & Rose "stamp used by a number of outworkers may merely have indicated their pride in a valuable association .
My left handed 8 Key Pond & Firth may owe something to another of them , Mr Camp .I don't know how to tell .Does anybody out there on the other side of the moon , or wherever the US of A is know any of his distinguishing features?. I know that Rudalls made the occasional lefthander , which seems odd for the victorian era .Does anybody know how many Pond & Firth might have made .People in Russia up to a few years ago were simply not allowed to be lefthanded .Its suprising that New York in 1860 was so much more enlightened . (Don't know about these days ! )
Another puzzle I have concerns a John Otten 7 keyed flute in my possession made perhaps around 1825 - 30 .It seems to be African blackwood , but made 40 years before Livingston reached the middle of Africa . Odd .
More importantly, can anybody guide us to a supplier of good cocus wood for repairs, barrels and possibly heads .It would give a new lease of life to potentially good old flutes !
Does Mr Migoya have any evidence that Wylde or anybody else was ever employed in house by Rudall & Rose .Mr Bigio who has been researching extensively on the matter thinks not .The "from Rudall & Rose "stamp used by a number of outworkers may merely have indicated their pride in a valuable association .
My left handed 8 Key Pond & Firth may owe something to another of them , Mr Camp .I don't know how to tell .Does anybody out there on the other side of the moon , or wherever the US of A is know any of his distinguishing features?. I know that Rudalls made the occasional lefthander , which seems odd for the victorian era .Does anybody know how many Pond & Firth might have made .People in Russia up to a few years ago were simply not allowed to be lefthanded .Its suprising that New York in 1860 was so much more enlightened . (Don't know about these days ! )
Another puzzle I have concerns a John Otten 7 keyed flute in my possession made perhaps around 1825 - 30 .It seems to be African blackwood , but made 40 years before Livingston reached the middle of Africa . Odd .
More importantly, can anybody guide us to a supplier of good cocus wood for repairs, barrels and possibly heads .It would give a new lease of life to potentially good old flutes !
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sturob
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Andrew, I don't think Livingston has to have anything to do with blackwood . . . it's a coastal timber, growing in southern Kenya down to Moçambique. The Portuguese had colonies in East Africa in the 17-18th centuries, and the Muslims started colonizing the region in the 9th century.
All depends on who was getting the timber . . .
Stuart
All depends on who was getting the timber . . .
Stuart
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RudallRose
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Andrew
I know of only one left-handed Rudall, not to say others don't exist.
The one I speak of is at the Dayton Miller collection:
http://home.earthlink.net/~migoya/id96__3555.htm
Regarding Wylde....I don't know of specific notes that show he was at the firm, nor Camp nor Whitaker.
But if their association was used "freely" without actually working there, I imagine R&R certainly would have ensured they only allowed the marking of "from Rudall & Rose" to be used by those who deserved it. No? Considering the great lengths they appeared to go with the certificates.
Still not sure what record might exist, save for Mr. Bigio's firm notes that only show the last number of years.
And for a source of cocus or blackwood, consider eBay. That's where Mr. Olwell seems to be buying up a bunch, although I sincerely doubt it's his main supply.
I know of only one left-handed Rudall, not to say others don't exist.
The one I speak of is at the Dayton Miller collection:
http://home.earthlink.net/~migoya/id96__3555.htm
Regarding Wylde....I don't know of specific notes that show he was at the firm, nor Camp nor Whitaker.
But if their association was used "freely" without actually working there, I imagine R&R certainly would have ensured they only allowed the marking of "from Rudall & Rose" to be used by those who deserved it. No? Considering the great lengths they appeared to go with the certificates.
Still not sure what record might exist, save for Mr. Bigio's firm notes that only show the last number of years.
And for a source of cocus or blackwood, consider eBay. That's where Mr. Olwell seems to be buying up a bunch, although I sincerely doubt it's his main supply.
I have to confess to Sturob that I haven't been futher south in Kenya than Mombasa .I can see where I went wrong , now .I did go to Tanzania though ,where the efforts to re-establish blackwood seem to be centred.Unfortunately I failed to get to the top of Kilimanjaro , or I might have been able to see to the Blackwood trees .
Does anybody know of 1820 era ( or earlier ) flutes being made in blackwood ?
Does anybody know of 1820 era ( or earlier ) flutes being made in blackwood ?