Wood vs metal rings at flute joints

[jefff]

I've seen that some wooden flute makers have an option for wood rings instead of metal rings around the joints, placed around the socket end to keep it from splitting open. Does a wood ring still fulfill the purpose of making the socket more stable so that it doesn't crack? It seems like it wouldn't help much, replacing one wood with another, unless there's some trick to it? Respectable folks are doing it, so I have to imagine they've thought it through. Right?

I am happily enjoying my carefree delrin flute for now but I've been browsing the wooden flute options out there, considering the long waiting time that I'll eventually end up signing up for. The many options, and the potential of an instrument cracking, all seem a bit overwhelming!

[jefff]

Nevermind, I assume that if it was indeed all wood it would not be great, but e.g. Windward says in one hidden little spot on their site that their wood rings are reinforced with carbon fiber, so I guess it's really more of a carbon fiber ring with a wood veneer over it to make it look nice. I suppose other makers must do something similar with another material hidden under the wood. Okay, it worries me less, now.

[JHMiddletown]

I think, Windward uses a carbon fiber thread under the wooden ring.
By the way, I love my Windward... (torrified Maple with Olive Rings)

[Geoffrey Ellis]

I've taken to doing wooden bore rings instead of metal, and I use carbon fiber tape and epoxy underneath the ring. I got the suggestion from paddler, and it works really well, though it's a trifle messy to deploy.

Wooden rings give a lot of decorative range with less trouble than forging metal rings. When I did metal rings, I had to make seven of them in various sizes for a single flute, and it dawned on me at some point that I was spending as much time manufacturing the rings as I was spending on the rest of the flute! Doing the carbon fiber tape and the wooden rings still requires some fuss, but it is still faster, and easier to get the fit that I wanted.

I should note that I use resin stabilized wood for the rings in an effort to reduce any potential movement.

[tstermitz]

I think the wood trimmed flutes from Windward are particularly beautiful. Not to ignore the quality of the workmanship.

[Dubpuff]

I think, Windward uses a carbon fiber thread under the wooden ring.
By the way, I love my Windward... (torrified Maple with Olive Rings)

I think the Windward flutes are very fine looking instruments, but I wonder why they make those olive wood tenon protectors. Drives the price up and have never seen a flute with them, although there may be some out there

[Terry McGee]

When I did metal rings, I had to make seven of them in various sizes for a single flute, and it dawned on me at some point that I was spending as much time manufacturing the rings as I was spending on the rest of the flute!

Heh heh, I remember years back coming to a conclusion like that. At that time I was measuring out the desired length of the section of the wire, marking it, sawing it off by hand, dressing the ends with a file and then sandpaper, bending it into a ring, soldering it, filing out any excess on the inside, tapping the ring up a long conical mandrel until it stopped, testing the diameter, tapping it more up and testing until it was right, etc, etc until I finally had the desired shiny object in hand. Then start again 6 more times...

So, finally I spat the dummy, and decided I had to come up with a more efficient method. It did require coming up with special tooling, but nothing too expensive. But I thank myself every time I sit down to make some more rings! I can now make and fit a set of rings in about an hour. Three hours including coffee breaks....

It's a funny thing about the flute making craft. Progress comes in fits and starts. You have to get sufficiently fed up with some aspect to decide to do something about it. I can imagine Herr Boehm having had a moment like that before embarking on his new design!

[jefff]

Based on other threads I’ve read on this site, it seems that it isn’t uncommon for a wood flute to shrink and a silver ring to then fall off, requiring a bit of cloth to be added under the ring to make it tight again. I wonder what happens when this shrinkage happens under carbon fiber… carbon fiber doesn’t shrink right? But, it’s epoxied around the wood, so maybe it does get pulled in as the wood shrinks? Or is the carbon fiber instead epoxied to the inner surface of the outer wood ring allowing it to fall off like a silver ring might? Oh but wait the outer wood ring could shrink too. Sorry I’m sure I’m overthinking this and it’s old news for you all, but nevertheless I will continue thinking up dumb questions lol!

[Geoffrey Ellis]

Heh heh, I remember years back coming to a conclusion like that. At that time I was measuring out the desired length of the section of the wire, marking it, sawing it off by hand, dressing the ends with a file and then sandpaper, bending it into a ring, soldering it, filing out any excess on the inside, tapping the ring up a long conical mandrel until it stopped, testing the diameter, tapping it more up and testing until it was right, etc, etc until I finally had the desired shiny object in hand. Then start again 6 more times...

Yes, this has been my exact process as well, and it does get a bit tedious! I don't use sterling silver (working instead with half-round nickel silver wire) and I did look into having the rings manufactured for me. But to make that worthwhile I had to order vast numbers of the things and it wasn't realistic. I always suspected that if I were really committed I could figure out some way to streamline my own in-shop process, but I wasn't making enough of the conical bore wooden flutes to justify the trouble (so I told myself). But if I were to work with the metal again, I'd take a leaf out of your book and try to come up with and approach that wasn't Jewelry Making 101 .

[Geoffrey Ellis]

Based on other threads I’ve read on this site, it seems that it isn’t uncommon for a wood flute to shrink and a silver ring to then fall off, requiring a bit of cloth to be added under the ring to make it tight again. I wonder what happens when this shrinkage happens under carbon fiber… carbon fiber doesn’t shrink right? But, it’s epoxied around the wood, so maybe it does get pulled in as the wood shrinks? Or is the carbon fiber instead epoxied to the inner surface of the outer wood ring allowing it to fall off like a silver ring might? Oh but wait the outer wood ring could shrink too. Sorry I’m sure I’m overthinking this and it’s old news for you all, but nevertheless I will continue thinking up dumb questions lol!

I think a lot would depend upon how seasoned your wood is and what type of adhesive you use. In my case, both the wood of the flute and the rings are resin-stabilized, which makes all the difference. And I use West Systems G-flex epoxy, which is very forgiving (strong and flexible). I use it for both the carbon fiber lay up and attaching the ring to the carbon fiber after it has set, so it's a multi-layered bond. I don't actually have any of these flutes out in circulation yet, so I'll have to wait and see how they hold up over time.

[Flutern]

The clarinet maker Backun went one step further and on some models they make rings out of carbon fiber. Here are the rings on mine:

lower section of the body: https://flic.kr/p/2pCiGuB
Bell: https://flic.kr/p/2pCpNb6

Personally I quite like it. I think it could be very pretty on a mopane flute. Is there any maker who would like to give that a try?

[paddler]

Aside from aesthetic differences and manufacturing efficiencies, another advantage of carbon fiber reinforced wooden rings is that they are much lighter weight than metal rings.