Flute Weights Sticky

[Loren]

The topic of flute weights comes up repeatedly, and it can be an important factor to consider for those who have hand/arm/shoulder issues. Also, some people just prefer lighter, or possibly heavier, flutes. Unfortunately most makers generally don’t list the weight of their instruments on their websites, which got me thinking (couple of decades late): might forum members want a sticky thread where people post such info?

These days accurate scales capable of measuring flute weights are pretty common in the home, so interested flute owners could weigh their instruments and post the specs here. Makers would, of course, be welcome to do so as well.

I’d suggest a certain minimal amount of information about each flute also be provided, including:

Maker Name

Maker’s model type designation: Pratten, Rudall, etc.

Material type: Blackwood, Boxwood, Delrin, etc.

Headjoint: Lined, half-lined, unlined, patent, etc.

Rings or no rings + material and type (if different from standard silver, or nickel)

Number of keys: 0 to whatever

Key configuration: Which keys if more, less, or different, than than the standard 6.

Do we need to bother specifying key material? Probably not, but maybe others will want that info. Same could hold true for slide and headjoint lining material.

Key mount type: Blocks or posts.

I don’t think tenon covering makes much difference in weight between cork and thread, but I’ve never measured the raw materials required to lap a tenon. Probably not worth mentioning. Ditto on describing the endcap and tuning cork/stopper.

Finally, I’d suggest using Grams rather than Ounces as the standard measurement, just to avoid all the messy decimals more than anything else.

Any thing I’m missing? Is a flute weight reference list even something folks are interested in? I’ll weigh some flutes and post specs if people are interested in making this a thing. And before anyone asks, I’m not going to measure emboucher and tone hole sizes and locations. Aside from makers, most people are not willing, or able, to accurately do such measuring, and it’s not my intention to get into blueprinting maker’s flutes here. I simply had the thought that a reference of flute weights might be helpful for those considering their next purchase, or even just to get an idea how heavy your current flute is to other flute out there.

Thoughts? Comments? Suggestions? Let’s hear them.

[Terry McGee]

Could be interesting to test the format by entering an example and see what's left over...

Maker Name: Terry McGee
Maker’s model type designation: Grey Larsen Preferred
Material type: Blackwood
Headjoint: Unlined but with cork-lapped tuning slide
Rings: Silver
Number of keys: 0
Key configuration: NA
Key mount type: NA
--------

And what's left over?

Weight: 297gms
Foot length (Short D, Long D, C, other?): Short D, integral with RH section.
Balance point, ref middle of hole one: 10mm above

I add that last point as I reckon we are probably more sensitive to the balance of a flute than its total weight. I've occasionally come across flutes where the head is so heavy that when you play ooo ooo, the embouchure hole drops away from under your lip! I think that happens when the balance point is around or higher than where your upper hand first finger presses against the flute. Rudall & Rose's Patent Head is one of the offenders.

You can measure balance point easily by tuning the flute to A440 (extending the slide will affect it a little) and balancing the flute on a round object (eg pen or pencil if you still have access to any of these historical artifacts) on the desk. Mark the balance point in pencil, then measure from the mark to the centre of the first hole.

(Yes, I can see the basic flaw in my plan. You did have a pencil to be able to mark the balance point, but it's currently pinned down under the flute...)

[jefff]

Maker Name: Andy Xu Hang / Galeon
Maker’s model type designation: Firth Pond & Co., keyless, D
Material type: Delrin
Headjoint: Lined, with brass tuning slide
Rings: Brass
Number of keys: 0
Key configuration: NA
Key mount type: NA
Weight: 361 g
Center of mass distance above the center of the top finger hole: 20 mm with tuning slide in, 25 mm with the tuning slide extended to A-440 for me anyway.
Foot: Short, integral with right hand side

[Loren]

Regarding format: While the (former) instrument maker in me likes things organized and formatted, I don’t think it’s absolutely necessary for the purpose of simply getting flute weights listed here. Certainly I wouldn’t want to put anyone off of contributing by specifying a cumbersome (perhaps to some) format.

For those who have fairly common known flutes, like a Keyed M&E flute for example, I think it would be fine, if one is not predisposed to arranging the info for formatted version, to simply post something like:

“Standard Model M&E 6 key polymer flute with wide bands, tuning slide and fully lined headjoint. Weight = 525 grams”

This gives sufficient info, I think, for this particular instrument. Less common, less well known instruments or those available with more customization would warrant some additional info, obviously.

And of course, if people want to add additional details, by all means, add whatever you want.

So IMO, formatted is good, but unformatted is also fine. I think each way has its own advantages or disadvantages for both posters and readers alike.

[Terry McGee]

I was thinking the same, Loren. It would make comparisons much easier if we can get the word count down to less than one line.

So perhaps my entry above could be reduced to something like the first line below. And I'll add my own playing flute for comparison:

McGee "Grey Larsen Preferred" keyless, Silver tuning slide, Integral D foot, Blackwood, 297gms, Balance point -10mm
McGee "Rudall Perfected" block-mounted 6-key, Silver tuning slide, Long D foot, Blackwood, 339gms, Balance point +4mm

If the header defined the terms, perhaps Balance Point could come down to "BP -10mm" (meaning "the Balance Point is 10mm above the middle of the first hole")

Note how the addition of the Long D foot and the blocks and 6 keys pushes the balance point 14mm down the flute. Yet it only weighs 42gms more! It's the leverage that counts!

And interesting to see in jefff's entry, that the balance point is 25mm up from the centre of the first hole, ie -25mm. I'd be guessing that the heavier Delrin, and the fully brass-lined head are contributing to that. The weight of 361 gms is 64 gms heavier than my GLP keyless, which is otherwise a pretty similar flute. It shows us how the balance point can really move around, which I think makes it a datapoint worth gathering. Hope someone can chip in a Rudall Patent Head flute to illustrate that point further!

[Terry McGee]

Loren said: I don’t think tenon covering makes much difference in weight between cork and thread, but I’ve never measured the raw materials required to lap a tenon. Probably not worth mentioning.

Coincidentally, I was assembling a GLP keyless this afternoon, so I thought to make up for your slovenly lack of precision (snigger!). The two pieces of cork needed for the top and bottom tenons (this was an Integral Foot type so no RH tenon involved) came in at a staggering 0.3gms. So, I guess I could let that pass.....

I'll admit that I didn't weigh the glue I use to hold it on....

Arrgghhh, edited to add that I also didn't weigh the cork grease I then applied to be able to assemble the flute. And I was slinging off at Loren's alleged lack of precision!

[Terry McGee]

I had said: Hope someone can chip in a Rudall Patent Head flute to illustrate that point further!

Then I remembered I have a Rudall Patent Head, but not the flute that it should have been attached to. So I popped it on the body of my Rudall Perfected 6-key playing flute. That was the one that came in as:

McGee "Rudall Perfected" block-mounted 6-key, Silver tuning slide, Long D foot, Blackwood, 339gms, Balance point +4mm

But with that head on it, it becomes:

McGee "Rudall Perfected" block-mounted 6-key, Rudall Patent Head, Long D foot, Blackwood body with Cocus head, 419gms, Balance point -57mm

And just awful to play unless you consciously anchor the far end of the body down with a spare finger. Or a handful of fishing weights?

If I wind the slide fully closed (A is now Bb + 40 cents!) the balance point moves to around -37mm, which I find marginal. It's about where my LH1 finger presses inwards.

Note that the cocuswood Patent Head comes in 80 grams heavier than my own blackwood head with silver tuning slides. And all that weight is above the balance point. Or should I call it the Imbalance point?

[Loren]

Loren said: I don’t think tenon covering makes much difference in weight between cork and thread, but I’ve never measured the raw materials required to lap a tenon. Probably not worth mentioning.

Coincidentally, I was assembling a GLP keyless this afternoon, so I thought to make up for your slovenly lack of precision (snigger!). The two pieces of cork needed for the top and bottom tenons (this was an Integral Foot type so no RH tenon involved) came in at a staggering 0.3gms. So, I guess I could let that pass.....

I'll admit that I didn't weigh the glue I use to hold it on....

Arrgghhh, edited to add that I also didn't weigh the cork grease I then applied to be able to assemble the flute. And I was slinging off at Loren's alleged lack of precision!

Ack! Caught out on my terrible lack of attention to detail yet again!

I actually did think of the additional weight of the rubber cement (I prefer Barge) however in light of the fact that one applies the cement to both the cork AND the tenon, you’d basically have to weight the flute sans cork and cement, then apply the cement, mount the corks, re-weigh the flute and work out the difference. Of course we’d want to be thorough so we would need to unmount the corks, remove the remaining cement, then wind with thread and re-weigh. But that’s flute need stuff.

That said, like you, I totally forgot about the cork grease. Also didn’t think till just now about correcting for altitude, temperature and atmospheric humidity

Thanks for your thoughts and contributions to the thread Terry, much appreciated.

Thank you as well jefff for adding the Galeon details.

So far there seems to be little interest in this thread. When I have a moment I will post some flute weights that I have noted and after that I guess we’ll wait to see if the thread gets enough traction to warrant asking for it to be made sticky. Otherwise, it slides off the page and we let it die a quiet and dignified death.

[Terry McGee]

So remember we found above that enough cork to lap three tenons weighed 0.3gms.

I'd rather forgotten about this, but when I recently embarked on the restoration of a Rudall Rose, I kept all the thread I took off the three tenons separately in little poly bags, "in case they could assist authorities with their enquiries". Well, we can now capitalise on that massive investment in hoarding....

Thread from the three tenons weigh:
LH top: 0.91gms
LH bot: 0.88gms
Rh bot: 0.63gms

Total: 2.42 gms.

So, while it still is nothing in terms of overall flute weight, it's interesting that it's 8 times more than cork! Probably the opposite of what I would have guessed. Cork is so light! Thread is heavier than you think! And strong!

Also of interest, note that the LH Bot tenon had almost as much thread on it as the LH top, but it's a far more narrow tenon. There was more than one colour of thread involved too, so clear case of serial strangulation!

Interestingly, that tenon was cracked along the grain and required some fairly deft realignment and gluing. Conceivably that cracking could be due in part to the intense forces so much thread would apply as the wood underneath swelled with moisture after playing. But it would be a bold call to assert that. It could equally have been sat upon in the pub!

[Terry McGee]

So far there seems to be little interest in this thread. When I have a moment I will post some flute weights that I have noted and after that I guess we’ll wait to see if the thread gets enough traction to warrant asking for it to be made sticky. Otherwise, it slides off the page and we let it die a quiet and dignified death.

Good plan, Loren. And even if it doesn't make the exalted status of a sticky, it will remain there and respond easily to searches like "flute weight". So it's not work wasted either way.

I'm thinking we should set some goals for ourselves here. For example, I reckon it would be good to have data from the most common classical flutes of interest, which I'd suggest are:
- Rudall & Rose 8-key
- Rudall Carte & Co 8-key
- Prattens 8-key
- French 5 key
- German 8-key
- US-made flutes such as William Hall, Firth & Pond, etc, 6 and 8-key versions

That would provide us a basis for comparison for our versions of their flutes. We might expect them to be a little heavier if we're using blackwood and even more for Delrin, and less for boxwood. And lighter if we're fitting lower numbers of keys and of course keyless.

And I still hold out for balance point measurements!

[Conical bore]

I'll play, hope I got the format right. My three contemporary maker flutes:

Peter Noy - Nicholson model, block mounted 8-key, Silver tuning slide, fully lined head, Blackwood, 406 gms, Balance point +3mm.

Thomas Aebi - Rudall model, block mounted 8 key, Silver tuning slide, fully lined head, Cocus wood, 454 gms, Balance point +15mm.

Gilles Lehart - Low Bb model (Rudall-ish), Post mounted 6 key, Brass tuning slide, fully lined head, Blackwood, 620 gms, Balance point -8mm.

Regarding balance point: This is with tuning slide pulled to A440 for my embouchure, just a tiny bit for the Nicholson, more for the Aebi and Lehart.

[chas]

I just got the new C foot for my Olwell, so here are the measurements with the C foot and the old one-key foot

Maker Name: Patrick Olwell
Maker’s model type designation: medium-holed (aka Nicholson)
Material type: boxwood
Headjoint: partially lined with slide (aka French style)
Rings: Silver
Number of keys: 8/6 (has two feet)
Key configuration: Cnat, right-hand Bflat, G#, long and short f, Eflat, low C# and C
Key mount type: block
Weight: 370/325 g
Foot length (Short D, Long D, C, other?): C foot / long foot with Eflat
Balance point: 34 mm below/6 mm below (toward foot)

[Loren]

Thanks for adding those guys.

Bet you’re having fun with that C foot Charlie!

[Loren]

Here are the stats for some Delrin D flutes, in order from lightest to heaviest.

Copley: Keyless D flute in Delrin with silver rings. 3 pieces. No tuning slide, tunable via long tenon. Unlined headjoint (obviously) 290 grams

John Gallagher: Keyless D large hole Rudall model in Delrin. 5 pieces. Rings are turned integral to the body. Brass tuning slide, half-lined headjoint. 343 grams

Watson: Keyless D Rudall style flute in Delrin. 5 pieces with silver rings and silver tuning slide. The headjoint is half-lined. 351 grams

Aebi : Keyless D flute, model unknown, but not a Pratten type. 5 pieces with wide flat copper bands. Brass tuning slide and fully lined headjoint (Why???) 384 grams

M&E: 6 key flute in Delrin. 5 pieces, wide, flat bands. Brass/Nickel tuning slide, fully lined headjoint. (Brass) : 525 grams


The Copley is the lightweight king of this group, and it should be noted that the overall length of the Copley is roughly 3 inches shorter than any of the other flutes. No surprise why people love Copley flutes for travel.

IMO the Aebi and M&E would be better off with half-lined headjoints to save some weight and improve the balance as both are somewhat head heavy.

The Gallagher is almost perfectly balanced but it has the unusual distinction of being about an inch longer on the left side of the headjoint than any other flute I own. This would make sense on an 8 key flute, but it slightly throws off an otherwise perfectly balanced flute. Not a big deal, more of an oddity worth mentioning.

[Terry McGee]

Since you're talking Delrin, Loren, here's one of mine, in two forms:

McGee Keyless Prattens flute in Delrin, silver rings, unlined with partial tuning slide, short D foot, 323gms, balance point -26mm
McGee Keyless Prattens flute in Delrin, silver rings, unlined with partial tuning slide, long D foot, 351gms, balance point +5mm

As you can see, the short foot (or the Integral foot which has the same total length) pushes the balance point quite a bit higher, but it's still below where my first finger presses, so no sense of head heavy. But only saves a negligible 28 gms in total weight, and 58mm in length!

I normally recommend the long D foot version as having better physical and visual balance. We're flute players; we owe it to our audiences to appear stylish!