Wooden Boehm flutes

[Cyberknight]

Does anyone have any advice on buying one of these that is high quality but not too expensive (i.e., not $15,000 or some ludicrous price like that)?

My girlfriend plays Boehm flute and is trying to get more into Irish music, and she's looking into something like this as an alternative to Irish flute. She ideally wants something cylindrical that plays just like a regular Boehm flute, but made out of wood. She also wants open-hole style keys.

[Conical bore]

My $.02 and take it with a grain of salt because I'm not a Boehm flute player (although I did own one for a while in the distant past, a nice Gemeinhardt with open hole keys).

It seems to me that a wooden Boehm flute from a modern maker would be more about visual aesthetics than anything else, and won't get her any closer to the reasons why the vast majority of ITM players choose conical bore, simple system flutes. It will be expensive too.

So why not take the less expensive step of getting a wooden Boehm flute headjoint for her current flute? It may or may not give a 'woodier" sound, and would at least partially satisfy the aesthetics of something different for playing ITM.

[jim stone]

here you go. https://www.irishflutestore.com/product ... -headjoint

Also the Irish Flute Store sometimes sells old wooden Boehm flutes by good makers (Blayne is helpful). Such flutes are also available occasionally in other venues online, so if you watch them you will probably find one.

[jim stone]

Check this. https://www.irishflutestore.com/product ... cert-flute

[Conical bore]

Note that the Rudall Carte flute listed above is "High Pitch / A=452." You'd want to check with Blayne at the Irish Flute Store to see if there is enough slide extension to play in A=440, and if that alters the intonation too much.

[Cyberknight]

My $.02 and take it with a grain of salt because I'm not a Boehm flute player (although I did own one for a while in the distant past, a nice Gemeinhardt with open hole keys).

It seems to me that a wooden Boehm flute from a modern maker would be more about visual aesthetics than anything else, and won't get her any closer to the reasons why the vast majority of ITM players choose conical bore, simple system flutes. It will be expensive too.

So why not take the less expensive step of getting a wooden Boehm flute headjoint for her current flute? It may or may not give a 'woodier" sound, and would at least partially satisfy the aesthetics of something different for playing ITM.

That's entirely fair. I doubt that a wooden Boehm flute would sound that much different. Really it's about aesthetics. We wanted something that looks more traditional, and she wanted a new flute with open holes that's nicer than her current (metal) student Boehm flute, so we thought, why not a wooden Boehm flute?

But if getting something quality will be too expensive, maybe it would make more sense to get nicer, open-holed metal one.

She's not that interested in learning to play on a new embouchure hole - plus, I'm skeptical of those wooden heads for Boehm flutes; I don't think they have taper in the head, do they? A non tapered head on a cylindrical instrument strikes me as a bad idea.

Maybe another option would be to find a conical bore Boehm flute; but I can't find one of those for sale that isn't an antique.

[Cyberknight]

here you go. https://www.irishflutestore.com/product ... -headjoint

Also the Irish Flute Store sometimes sells old wooden Boehm flutes by good makers (Blayne is helpful). Such flutes are also available occasionally in other venues online, so if you watch them you will probably find one.

I'm skeptical of anything that inexpensive. Why is it that a nice, well-made 8-key Irish flute typically costs significantly more than that? You'd think that the complex nature of the Boehm keywork would make it more expensive than your typical 8-key flute. Anyone have any insights as to why these wooden Boehm flutes tend to be cheaper than their 8-key counterparts?

[jim stone]

The Boehms lent themselves to mass production, and they are cylindrical--both mean the maker has less to do and so lower the price. Also supply and demand are playing a role. The makers of the best 8 keys were, after the Boehms came in, still making 8 keys for a long while too and I expect the Boehm flutes they made were very good. My supposition is that the Boehm orchestral flutes back when finger pretty much like they do now. Blayne (at IFS) will answer questions quite honestly and knowledgeably, if you want to know about particular flutes he lists. You can send him messages on the site.

[Tonehole]

Cyberknight - have you researched the Peter Worrell simple system flute tailored on the Rudall Carte 8 key simple system flute?

http://www.peterworrell.co.uk/pwrc.htm

It plays at modern pitch and the head joint can be swapped with any Boehm headjoint - a wooden Chris Abell flute headjoint and the simple system keywork is intuitive for Boehm players to manage the embouchure. It is unusual in being able to accept a parabolic headjoint provided the tenon is adjusted for diameter fit.

The closed hole wooden Boehms were never the flavour of the century: straddling the hybrid era after open hole simple system and Boehm full metal, they are a great bargain entry if the sounding length and pitch matches. For classical players it will be hard to accept these as the pitch drift at the upper third octave where most ITM does not venture, starts to come apart.

A wooden headjoint is a huge step way from the penetrating metal sound of silver headjoints although yes, just a half step away. For fully cloaked wooden Boehms - Ritterhausen, Lot, Schreiber were at the top of the game...Metzlers, Mollenhauer, Thibouville and a host of English late 19th century flute makers made exemplary wooden Boehm flutes too.There are some average to low A=435Hz German ones floating around which are best avoided.

[Cyberknight]

Cyberknight - have you researched the Peter Worrell simple system flute tailored on the Rudall Carte 8 key simple system flute?

http://www.peterworrell.co.uk/pwrc.htm

It plays at modern pitch and the head joint can be swapped with any Boehm headjoint - a wooden Chris Abell flute headjoint and the simple system keywork is intuitive for Boehm players to manage the embouchure. It is unusual in being able to accept a parabolic headjoint provided the tenon is adjusted for diameter fit.

I'm aware of this sort of thing! And I'd possibly be interested in something like this for myself. But my girlfriend isn't keen on learning to play her F sharps and C naturals all differently, so she'd much prefer a true Boehm system wooden flute. Thank you for the suggestion, though!

[Cyberknight]

The Boehms lent themselves to mass production, and they are cylindrical--both mean the maker has less to do and so lower the price. Also supply and demand are playing a role. The makers of the best 8 keys were, after the Boehms came in, still making 8 keys for a long while too and I expect the Boehm flutes they made were very good. My supposition is that the Boehm orchestral flutes back when finger pretty much like they do now. Blayne (at IFS) will answer questions quite honestly and knowledgeably, if you want to know about particular flutes he lists. You can send him messages on the site.

Quite understandable!

This looks promising, even though it has a conical bore: https://www.justflutes.com/shop/product ... lide-flute

[cac]

A wooden Boehm flute by a living maker or firm would be very expensive and would still sound like a Boehm flute. However, there are a number of very, very good trad flute players who play Boehm flutes, tighten their embouchures and get a good Irish sound from them. Listen to Joanie Madden and Lucie Périer. Steph Geremia has done a lesson series for sliver flute players who want to play Irish music. Her normal instruments are wooden 8-key simple system flutes but she gets a fine sound with her Miyazawa silver flute in this lesson series and tells you how to get it. The first lesson is available for free on facebook or youtube:
https://www.facebook.com/watch/?v=667189891502420

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pJ6BGz1-UT4

If this lesson is a bit too advanced, start first with the free lesson for wooden non-Boehm flute (watch it anyway for help with the embouchure):
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=goCd1mEWsWs

Here is an example of Lucie Périer's playing:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=np5PSkgschY

Áine Heslin is another Boehm player of Irish music:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=P4Lb9q9e4iA

If she wants to stay with a Boehm flute, then I recommend a silver one. It will be much, much less expensive than a wooden Boehm flute and will have the same sound possibilities. I once asked Lucie Périer what kind of flute she played, and this is what she wrote:
"I had tried a bunch of very expensive sterling silver flutes beforehand, from ... to ... and ..., and none of them suited my needs. ... I wanted a sturdy mechanism and a rather "cheap" one. So mine is a "semi-professional" flute, that costs 3000€ and it's I think the best flute I've ever had. I loved the sound instantly and it really handles the ornamentations very well if you take good care of it." Her flute has the MZ-10 embouchure cut and a regular wall thickness. If I were to get a silver flute to play Irish music, this is what I would buy although I would want a different embouchure cut.

With a Boehm flute, wooden or silver, it takes some care to avoid the tubby sound that these flutes have unless they are played the way Steph and Lucie play it. FWIW, I prefer a simple system wooden flute with an oval embouchure and a conical bore. I like the feel of the air on my fingertips and I think the trad sound is easier to come by. For these, a keyless wooden flute is an inexpensive possibility (keys are not needed for the vast majority of tunes). I don't think it is difficult to switch between the two fingering systems. Chet

[tstermitz]

I understand the aesthetic desire to have a wooden flute, and this is not an impossible quest. The problem is that many if not most of the 19th Century Boehm flutes from England will be high-pitch, as in A450, which is half-way from D to Eb. And the good concert pitch flutes from the 20th Century might be expensive; I know next to nothing about that market, I confess.

I think that 19th C French Boehm flutes are not so high pitch and they are more common than the British. I think they are considered quite good flutes, but with a sweeter tone - not the raucous Irish style.

Two other constraints you describe are that she doesn't want to change her embouchure style, and that she doesn't want to try other fingerings. The latter is less of a problem than she would think, and the former is very worth pursuing. Tone quality/character is probably the primary reason to look into a wooden flute. Read up on the English wooden flute players of the early 20th Century who are famous for a powerful, rich and wonderful tone; very different from today's preferred flute style.

And yes, the wooden head joints are an excellent and normal solution if that is your desire. They are of course tuned for proper use on a Boehm flute.

In any case look at the Old Flutes web page:
http://www.oldflutes.com/boehm.htm

[Geoffrey Ellis]

She's not that interested in learning to play on a new embouchure hole - plus, I'm skeptical of those wooden heads for Boehm flutes; I don't think they have taper in the head, do they? A non tapered head on a cylindrical instrument strikes me as a bad idea.

Yes, they do have a taper in the head. At least they do if the maker knows what they are about . I've made head joints of various types for Boehm flutes, and with the exception of really off-label things like a shakuhachi-style head joint, they all feature the parabolic taper (Chris Abell's head joint undoubtedly has the taper). To get a more ITM flavor, I gather that the oval embouchure cut helps. I'm not a Boehm flute player, so all of my knowledge on this comes second hand from player feedback. But Boehm flute players that I've known don't seem to have too much difficulty adapting to an oval embouchure, though it does seem to require a more focused air stream.

I think that wood or ebonite (which I often used) do give a slightly different nuance than metal, but much less than most players would imagine. I've witnessed some blind testing of head joints, and when the listener doesn't know what material is being used, they cannot hear the difference. But this is not true of the the player, who can feel the difference. And there is the aesthetic aspect of course.

[david_h]

From listening to and talking to trad-playing Boehm flute players over the years I have a suspicion that people who chose wooden flutes and wooden head joints are people who want a woody sound and that those wthl metal flutes don't want to sound woody or not enough to change flute or head joint. [continued in next post]