Beginner flute question: Carbony, wood, etc

[jefff]

Hi Folks, I'm a fiddle player and a month ago I took a plunge into learning the flute! I love it and am absolutely obsessed! So far I can make it through Cook in the Kitchen and Jim Ward's at a respectable pace, but of course my ornaments, tone, and breathing are sloppy when I try to keep the rhythm moving. Working on it!!

I was hoping to get a bit of advice, please, as I'm thinking about instruments and instructors and how to go about this. One specific question is should I be shopping for a "nice" instrument now, given the long waiting times that flute makers have. I'm wondering if a nicer instrument would be easier to learn and advance on?

The flute I have right now is a used Carbony flute, seems to be one of their older designs without the newer features mentioned on their site, I bought it used for less than half of what they're selling for new on the company's website. So far, I have to say the lower register does everything I dreamed a flute should do, with the complex gritty tone and dynamic sound and all that. It's my impression that it's a fairly nice instrument. But, I'm new to this, so my opinion is not worth much! I have some issues with it, but I don't have the experience to know if the instrument is a limitation in any of them or if it's all me: I can't yet play sweetly in the upper register, anything from a g and above really needs to be screaming to come through without popping down to the lower octave. And, on the low end, the E is strangely weak and breathy compared to the D below it which is really strong and resonant.

If I were to save up for, and get in line for, a nicer wooden instrument, would I notice a huge jump in the sound that I'm getting, or the ease of playing? If so, I have been seriously looking at WD Sweet and Casey Burns flutes that seem to be available sooner rather than later (both keyless), and they look to be well-liked and are said to play well by folks who post about this stuff on the internet. If you think that these would not be major improvements over my Carbony, though, then maybe what I need to do is stick with my Carbony flute and save up for a much fancier keyed flute from one of those long waiting lists. I've also noticed that M&E makes a polymer flute with keys that is relatively lower in price and available within a short time line, but I have no idea whether or not this would be an upgrade in terms of playability or sound. And, how important are keys, really? Certainly some of them are of no use to me (e.g. Eb), and in flat keys I'd prefer the fiddle anyway, but hey a G# sounds useful once I can control that upper octave a bit better. And, I gather that folks say the keys are useful for ornaments?

Sorry, I'm sure these kinds of beginner questions centered around what to buy are frequent and annoying, but I appreciate any advice, and I appreciate your time for reading this overly wordy question. Thank you!

[Jayhawk]

Welcome to the dark side of woodwinds! I've a bit of experience with Carbony flutes, but I've only played a handful over the years. The maker, whose name alludes me, use to have a booth at the KC Irish fest when he was new to making flutes. My experience is that his early flutes were definitely lacking. He took measurements on a couple of my flutes (I'm sure he did this with lots of people), and I definitely think the newer ones are better. That said, you're so new that just playing daily will lead to considerable growth, but I do think a good flute makes things easier.

Let's get the key thing out of the way...on many flutes, you can kind of half-hole or use alternate fingerings for accidentals. G#, although not perfect, is often possible half holing the note. Plus, you have fiddle if you want to play tunes in problematic keys. However, if you want to play those tunes on flute...keys are great. You can get by quite well with 4 keys (Fnat, G#, Cnat, Eb), but I personally prefer the full 8 keys. I find Eb useful on a handful of tunes, and it's the one note that is exceptionally difficult to half-hole.

WD Sweet and Casey Burns make great flutes. Some people don't love M&E flutes because they are heavier than many flutes, but I've found them to be good flutes and the keys work well (you can't beat the price for a 6 key M&E flute). David Copley makes great flutes that are usually available quickly if you want keyless, but any maker, apart from M&E, will have a longer wait time for keys. Francois Baubet makes great flutes, both keyed and unkeyed. Heck, poke around on the board there are so many good options today for a new flute.

As for wood vs. polymer...that does change who you could have as a maker. Some don't touch polymer, some won't key polymer, etc. I have both an 8 keyed delrin Copley and soon will have my 8 key cocus Henry Wylde from the 1830s back in hand after re-repair of a cracked headjoint (Patrick Olwell is repairing it for me). Cracks are definitely an issue with wood, so polymer is stress free. I tend to find, and be told by others, that I sound the same on both flutes, and I think most players sound like themselves more than they sound like the flute or the make of flute (unless there is a problem with the flute).

I hope this helps.

Eric

[jefff]

That's very helpful, thanks! I will have to look further into the other delrin options for a keyed flute then. I do appreciate plastic, in that I currently do not have to worry about meticulous cleaning, oiling, carefulness, time spent playing, etc. I am a big dude and I'm not super worried about a flute being too heavy, a bit more weight might honestly make it feel more secure in place (compared to this light weight carbon fiber). If it's actually as playable and full sounding as wood, hmmm, sounds good to me.

I should also add that I've had a musician friend try out my Carbony flute and she remarked that it does have a great tone and is fairly even and easy to play, though the low end is not as loud as the top end unless you play it more breathy for all those overtones. And, I have not had trouble keeping most of my notes in tune; popping up and down an octave gives relative intonation that is pretty good (I've heard whistle players who have had trouble with this on some whistles, in comparison). So, maybe I'm fine for a few years. It's so hard to judge, though, since there isn't an irish flute shop that I could visit to try out different options; this is literally the only flute I've ever tried.

[Jayhawk]

It's so easy to go down the flute rabbit hole seeking the holy Grail of flutes (I sure did). Time spent on your current flute will not be wasted for sure!

Eric

[Steve Bliven]

I will have to look further into the other delrin options for a keyed flute then.

If you're looking for a delrin option, Dave Copley makes a nice one for under $400. Many folks here have played these along our search for the "ideal flute". I have had a couple in my own search (still have a keyed version) and found them to be quite good. They will carry you a long way and when you do find the "ideal", you should be able to sell on the Copley for about what you paid for it. [And I have no financial connection to Dave, just a satisfied customer.]

Best wishes.

Steve

[jefff]

Thanks everyone. I have decided to upgrade but I will probably stick with a keyless flute, in part because I don't see many keyed options that I could have in hand anytime soon.

After reading many, many discussions of delrin flutes on this site, I think I've narrowed down the list to Copley (delrin), Baubet (delrin), Forbes (delrin), and a WD Sweet Clare (wood). Now it's just a matter of making up my mind. I play with a group that includes uilleann pipes, with a particularly nice and loud chanter, so to compete I'm thinking the Forbes, which is supposed to have a bit more power to it, or maybe the WD Sweet Clare, might be the top options.

I haven't seen much said about the WD Sweet Clare, but what I have seen has me intrigued. He discusses, on his site, a lot of unique aspects to the design that are supposed to result in a more durable instrument despite being made of wood. And people have loved his previous model flutes (the Shannon, a delrin flute, is that correct?), so I'm assuming that this is an iteration along those same lines. Wood makes me a little nervous, being in a region with cold dry winters and humid summers. I emailed to ask about it. If I wimp out on the prospect of wood, then I think I would get a Forbes based on what people have said about it. In general, I'm attracted to the idea of big chunky resonant low notes.

[Jayhawk]

Walt Sweet is a great guy, and his Shannon was an amazing flute, but I have not owned his Clare model but would expect it to be meticulously good. I have owned all the others, and the Forbes was my least favorite. Forbes is a Pratten model based flute, and if you want a Pratten, I much preferred my Des Seery delrin flute. Copley and Baubet flutes are both as powerful as the Forbes...really, it's more about you with regard to volume...I've played "quiet" flutes and found them not so quiet.

Eric

[Kirk B]

The Forbes is a great flute, I've owned one. It's a large-holed Pratten style model and the low D will knock the paint off the walls with little effort. The only drawback for me was that the upper register didn't sound as sweet as a Rudall type flute which is what I have now (Glenn Watson 6-key). Then again I find Rudall style flutes harder to get a booming low D out of so it's give and take. As others have said, Dave Copley makes a great flute and you can't go wrong there either.
Delrin is a good choice to start out with, especially if you live in a dry climate. Much less care and worry. I'm in the 4th gloomiest city in the US so I don't have to worry as much about my wooden flute. I oil it once a year and keep a tiny piece of damp washcloth in the case and make sure to keep an eye on the humidity level and I've never had an issue. I like the feel of a wooden flute better than Delrin and they are lighter in weight, but that's just my personal preference. Good luck with whatever you end up with!

[Gromit]

"anything from a g and above really needs to be screaming to come through". Work on your embouchure could make those higher notes easier.

[jim stone]

Also if you buy a flute worth buying you can later sell it to help fund another. That's happening on chiffandfipple and also the Irish Flute Store and other venues. The choice isn't written in cement.

[jefff]

The Forbes … will knock the paint off the walls with little effort.

Good to hear, thanks!! I just placed an order with Rob Forbes for a flute. I feel fairly confident it will be an improvement. In particular I’ve discovered that the used flute I’ve started with is designed for small hands with offset angled holes and a significantly narrower body. I’ve gotten better at coaxing a wide range of different tones and volumes out of it, but after trying it out (for a slower tune) at a session I’ve discovered that it’s relatively pretty quiet, much harder to hear myself than on fiddle. And I can tell that my hands might benefit from having a larger barrel and in line holes. I’ll be glad to know for sure with the Forbes that if it’s still too quiet it must be entirely my fault lol No shade on the Carbony, it really has been easy to learn and improve on and I can see the many efforts that were made to accommodate smaller hands which is fantastic.

[Jayhawk]

In particular I’ve discovered that the used flute I’ve started with is designed for small hands with offset angled holes and a significantly narrower body.

Offset holes drive me nuts and I find too narrow a body hard on my hands, too. I'm sure you'll be much happier with the Forbes!

Eric

[jefff]

I confirmed this at a session tonight, I ran into another flute player! She had a R&R based model from Solen Lesouëf and oh my gosh, *everything* about it was bigger than my flute. It felt much easier and more comfortable to play the full size instrument, and the other flutist had small hands and she had a much easier time with the Carbony. Unfortunately she was not interested in trading LOL!!! (The Lesouef was, I imagine, probably four to five times the cost so that is understandable!!). Anyway, yes, this has confirmed for me that I will get along much better with the Forbes once it’s made!

[jefff]

A follow-up and a thank-you-all: I received a flute from Rob Forbes yesterday and it is absolutely perfect for me! It fits in my hands just right (though note that I wear xl gloves … the tone holes are very large) and I got some great sounds out of it immediately. It’s easy to fly up and down both octaves and it all sounds very even, and getting good intonation seems pretty straight forward. The low D speaks immediately even when popping down quickly from high-up. And wow I didn’t realize how nice it would be to be light weight but it’s much lighter than the Galeon F&P I’ve been trying out and that makes it feel really great to play. Everything about the Forbes is really well thought out to make it affordable but also no compromises on playability. It looks nice too! You can tell he put individual care into the voicing and finish etc.

I will probably be selling the Carbony and the Galeon F&P in the near future. Though the Galeon F&P has a distinctly different voice: bright, strident, and trumpetty. Like you get if you crank up the high-mids on a stereo’s EQ. That might be a reason to hang on to it as well, I dunno,