Chiff and Fipple Forums

Someone local has an interesting-seeming flute for sale, and all it's missing is its head! I'm wondering, though, what kind of flute it is exactly.

https://app.box.com/s/p9sjrsz3zczuuofbsme09t6g3dwncmrf

I'm also wondering if it's in any way worth it to check it out and buy it with the hopes of getting someone to make a new head. Obviously, I'd check it out beforehand, and likely measure to see if it is in the ballpark for good intonation at 440. I'm hoping one of the heads to a flute I already own fits on it so I could do a little test if I checked it out, although the chances of the keys all sealing is probably low.

Any ideas as to the provenance? Worth taking a look?

Your first 'port-of-call' should be here: http://www.mcgee-flutes.com/flutelengths.htm This is a discussion of 'flute-sounding length'. You are in luck insofar as having the ability to measure the length from the C# hole (first hole, left hand section) to the Eb hole at the foot. This will be the assembled length. This will give an indication of the scalar length of this flute body. (e.g. if it is D or Eb or. . .?)
The picture labeled .jpg #1 appears to show what appears to be the hardware for the missing tuning slide and possibly a headjoint sleeve for a 'half-lined' head. If this is the case, it will be invaluable in assisting a maker to fabricate a replacement head-joint.

Good luck,
Bob

Assuming it's absolutely dirt cheap, it's worth trying a test. Not sure what's going on with that barrel, or if at all usable. Of course it's completely missing that low C, but it is a normally open key, so just may be now vented a little high.

Asking is $175, figuring I could talk it down a bit. Don't care as much about the C, but obviously being non-440 would make it much less worth it to me. Am going to check it out soon, at the very least I can hopefully give the guy a bit more info than he has so he can adjust his expectations.

W-e-l-l-l. At 175 USD this will be a steal. Talking him down from there will be entering the zone of Robbery-with-violence and Intent-to-do-great bodily harm. But, 'let your conscience be your guide'

Bob

That seems to be the going rate for more generic antique flutes in need of repair. I've seen a lot of flutes on eBay for that price, almost all of them with cracked headjoints, missing crowns, missing keys and rings, that sort of thing. Now, this doesn't have a headjoint, cracked or not, but most of the cheao ones available are nach Meyer types; at first glance this seems different to me, but I'm far from an expert.

A good steel measure , a bright light, and a good magnifying glass will be your best guides when you can go hands-on with this instrument. This is not a Nach-Meyer! Anyone who can make you a replacement head can also give you a forgiving and useful embouchure cut.

I would very much like to get Terry McGee's take on this.

Bob

I once restored a Firth, Son & Co flute that looks very much like that one. Take a look at the pictures in the link below and compare details of keys, block work, etc. There are several very distinctive features that give me high confidence that that flute is of a similar provenance. For example, the round, flattened short F touch with a recess in the body, the style of the interlocking foot key touches, the matching style of all the keys and all the block work throughout. All of these are quite typical of American flutes of that genre. The rings are different, of course, but that is a fairly superficial detail and I have seen other flutes from this (and related) makers that have that style of rings.

The makers marks on these are often very faint, so it would not surprise me at all if the seller thinks it is unmarked, even if every piece is marked but only visible in really good light with a magnifying glass.

In the link below you can click on the images to get larger versions to see the details in close-up.

http://jonathanwalpole.com/firth-son-co-8-key

These can be very good players at modern pitch. $175 is a steal! I'd buy that in a heartbeat.

It should be easy to get a head made for it, but you may even be able to get one of your existing flute heads (with barrel) to work on it as is, with a suitable amount of thread wrapping on the tenon.

In this old thread, tstermitz describes a flute very similar to the one shown in your pictures. His even had the same wide bands on the rings. He links to a IFS sale of an Olwell restored Firth, Pond & Co flute with the same rings.

viewtopic.php?f=36&t=113197

Oh, and it looks to me as if the original barrel is there in the first picture. It probably developed a crack which was fixed by an external nickel sleeve over the wooden part. If you look carefully, you can see the wood in the socket. If you get a head made it would be worth getting both a new head and barrel made, perhaps reusing the ring and band from the original. That way you can get a slightly longer head that doesn't require quite so much tuning slide extension for A=440 hz playing. And it will be lighter than using the original, externally lined, barrel.

There is a very faint mark on the section with the ring key, if you zoom in you can see something that looks like an A.

David

The flute is mine! It is marked on the left hand piece and the right hand piece, faint but clearly visible. Cannot make out anything on the footjoint. Left hand says

WILLIAM HALL & SON
239 BROADWAY
N. YORK

Right hand says

HALL & SON
N. YORK

Measured the C# to Eb indicator since I couldn't do the sounding length obviously, came to around 260mm. A Millyard head that I have fit on it OK, and I was able to get a very weak/leaky but on-pitch A440 out of it. There are some small cracks in the middle tenon (left hand into right hand), but other tenons look good. Hole #5 is about 10mm, pretty decent size for these flutes.

To say I'm excited is an understatement. Made a couple inquiries to flutemakers about restoration and the head; I'd welcome any suggestions! I don't know about shipping cocus internationally, so I should maybe focus on American ones? Or maybe it'd be OK CITES-wise and all that?

Congratulations! You just bought a fifty-dollar Porsche. Enjoy!

I don't think there are any CITES restrictions on Cocus. (I could be wrong, so check it out.) This is, of course, a certifiable Antique, so. . .

Bob

Here is the CITES registry: https://www.cites.org/eng/app/appendices.php

The construction details clearly indicate Firth, Hall & Pond family, which you have now confirmed.

These American flutes always (to the best of my knowledge) play at A440 with good intonation, and are roughly equivalent to the English R&R flutes with medium-sized holes. Not Session blasters, although Eric might beg to differ! I don't find that they "resonate" like the best of the English flutes, but they are quite good anyway.

$175 is a good price for pieces-parts of a Cocus wood flute, but I wouldn't call it a steal due to the missing head and low-C key. Maybe Paddler or Jon Cornia has a drawer of flute parts. Replacing a key is probably prohibitively more expensive than replacing the head!

I've played the repair game, on FHP flutes, and the "non-steal" price is commonly $600 or so for a sad looking attic find, and another $600 in repairs, and the result should be worth close to $2,000. What does a new head cost? Another $500 (?), and you are still in the ballpark. Try Solomon Islands Blackwood for a close match to Cocus, although regular blackwood might look pretty sharp.

A steal? Well, sometimes you're lucky. I did find a Buy-it-Now R&R for $200 (but that is pure luck - seller vs the internet vs time), and recently got a Bates/Goodlad (Willis/Wylde shop) for $300. Head cracks, barrel cracks and re-padding is well-within budget if you have all the parts.

[edit] As you say any random Nach Meyer "Rare antique wooden flute" on eBay is advertised at $200, but isn't worth repairing. So the "steal" part is that your Cocus FHP flute is actually a good instrument.

Nice find! They can definitely hold their own in a session if your embouchure is good. Tom is right about tuning and all. Are you planning to send it off for renovation and a custom headjoint?

Eric

tstermitz wrote: ↑Thu Aug 24, 2023 2:45 pmWhat does a new head cost? Another $500 (?), and you are still in the ballpark.

These days, prices are more in the $700 to $1000+ for a headjoint, and another ~$300 for a barrel. I'd still say it's worth it, especially considering how cheap this one was! In my experience, a modern headjoint by a good maker makes these antique flutes much more rewarding to play (good tone, more power and less effort).

Congratulations bigsciota! This is a great find and I'm sure you'll be happy with it once it's restored.