Cyberknight wrote: ↑Sun Nov 12, 2023 5:37 pmKeep in mind that Rockstro is just one method of holding the flute. Not everyone prefers it; I certainly don't. Its main (arguable) benefit is that it supposedly makes it slightly easier to use the D sharp key without losing grip on the flute.
There is another benefit, the one that finally convinced me to try it, and that's ease of the LH thumb hitting the Bb key on a conventional (19th Century style) keyed flute. It's the only way I found I could hit the Bb while keeping the flute perfectly stable. A comfortable Eb and C#/C touch is another benefit, but it was the Bb key that really sold me on it. Of course if you never play a tune with a Bb then it may be irrelevant.
On the question of whether learning on a keyless flute will hamper learning the hold on a keyed flute, well, that's what I did -- found a steady hold on my initial keyless using a lot of RH pinky anchoring for stability, and then switched to the three point hold, or 19th Century hold, or whatever we're going to call it.
It wasn't too difficult for me to learn the different hold. But I think the reason for why you're doing it this way only becomes clear when you start to use all those keys on the odd duck tunes in Irish trad that need the full set of keys.
Cyberknight wrote: ↑Sun Nov 12, 2023 5:37 pmKeep in mind that Rockstro is just one method of holding the flute. Not everyone prefers it; I certainly don't. Its main (arguable) benefit is that it supposedly makes it slightly easier to use the D sharp key without losing grip on the flute.
There is another benefit, the one that finally convinced me to try it, and that's ease of the LH thumb hitting the Bb key on a conventional (19th Century style) keyed flute. It's the only way I found I could hit the Bb while keeping the flute perfectly stable. A comfortable Eb and C#/C touch is another benefit, but it was the Bb key that really sold me on it. Of course if you never play a tune with a Bb then it may be irrelevant.
On the question of whether learning on a keyless flute will hamper learning the hold on a keyed flute, well, that's what I did -- found a steady hold on my initial keyless using a lot of RH pinky anchoring for stability, and then switched to the three point hold, or 19th Century hold, or whatever we're going to call it.
It wasn't too difficult for me to learn the different hold. But I think the reason for why you're doing it this way only becomes clear when you start to use all those keys on the odd duck tunes in Irish trad that need the full set of keys.
Interesting. I have played slow tunes with B flats, and I never had any trouble playing them. I'm not sure why Rockstro would be better for that. If anything, I'd think it would make using the B flat key more difficult. The annoying thing about Rockstro is that it removes most of the upward pressure from the flute (which is the main function of the right thumb in the hold I use). When you use the b flat key, your left thumb can't provide any upward pressure; thus, with Rockstro grip, *neither* thumb is providing any upward pressure on the flute. Seems like it would make it harder to keep the flute from falling. With the grip I use, my right thumb provides all the support I need, and my left thumb can "float" off the key and press it whenever I need.
Nor is there any discomfort playing C or C#. And honestly, Eb isn't even particularly hard, now that I've gotten used to it. It's slightly awkward, I suppose, because I have to lift my pinky just for that one note to place it on the key. But it's really not any trouble, cuz all the rest of my fingers are on the instrument when I play an Eb, and it's got plenty of support, so it's really not a big deal.
The only time it's really an issue is in those very rare cases where I have to go from C# to Eb. And in situations like that, I've found that it's not too hard to put pressure on the flute while touching the Eb key, but not fully pressing it (if that makes any sense).
Heh heh, I think I can assert with confidence, that if you don't see the benefits of the three-point hold, you aren't doing it right! I'll concede it took me a long time to get it right - I don't think the period instructions are altogether helpful. I found I had to turn the head back in a long way to be able to find the magical balance point - the point where you can go to ooo ooo from any other fingering and don't find the embouchure twisting towards you.
And, having got to the right geometry, I don't find any need for holding the flute up - pinned between the chin, the LH 1 knuckle pushing it in, and the right thumb tip pushing it out, it can't possibly fall down! And the benefits are many:
- the left thumb can wave around in the air, and is certainly free to press the Bb key
- RH4 can also wave around in the air and is free to press the Eb key
- the right hand fingers are straighter and can move more freely than with the more typical hold.
Now, as you are possibly aware, I disdain the descriptor "Rockstro Grip", for what I think are two good reasons. Firstly, you tend to name things after their inventor, not after one of their last advocates. Rockstro makes it very clear he didn't invent it - he even publishes a list of authorities who advocated it before him. Secondly, the word "grip" implies tightness to me. "The death grip". Once you get this hold working properly, it's remarkable how you can relax the pressure. And that's important to keep our hands relaxed, healthy and free.
Now, one of the things that puzzled me about Rockstro advocating this hold is that by the time he was writing his book (released in 1890), the old flute had been superceded by the Boehm cylindrical flute (patented in 1847) or the flood of variants that followed it (including Rockstro's own short-lived minor variant). The new flutes with their mechanised keywork were so much easier to hold and finger, so why on earth would Rockstro be continuing to recommend the hold that had been used by its predecessor? So I just unearthed my old Armstrong Boehm flute from the Cupboard of Death and tried it out using the 19th century flute hold. Brilliant! The benefits above still apply. Suddenly I can understand Rockstro - he would already be used to the three-point hold from his younger days playing the old flute. Even though the new flute didn't really need it, why drop something that works so well? Hence his enthusiastic advocacy.
Indeed (and this was initially perplexing!), whereas I said above how I have to turn the head in a long way on my flute or on period flutes, I find I don't have to turn it in much at all to be able to hold it in balance with the three points. Weird or what? Thinking about it, I think it must be because of the eccentric nature of the head. With our style of flutes, the bottom of the head strikes my bony chin, and has to be allowed for. With the Boehm style head, that bottom area is cut away, so no interference. I'll be interested to hear from others on that topic.
But it gets more interesting. If I do turn the head right in on the Boehm, I also get the hard dark tone that we so lust after. I wonder if Rockstro was also lusting after that?
And, having got to the right geometry, I don't find any need for holding the flute up - pinned between the chin, the LH 1 knuckle pushing it in, and the right thumb tip pushing it out, it can't possibly fall down! And the benefits are many:
- the left thumb can wave around in the air, and is certainly free to press the Bb key
- RH4 can also wave around in the air and is free to press the Eb key
- the right hand fingers are straighter and can move more freely than with the more typical hold.
Yeah, grip is for golf clubs. I think everybody calls it a hold, not a grip.
Regarding the question of whether playing a keyless flute makes it harder to learn the 3-point hold.
I think the answer is "probably yes", although like anything it just takes practice. The more difficult habit to break or re-learn comes from not using the Eb key. Once you get used to leaving your Right pinky down, it takes work to stop relying on it. Thus the observation that most ITM musicians, and probably ALL the older ones, just turn the foot joint away.
I do wish that keyless flutes all had that one Eb key like the older traversos.
Heh heh, "grip is for golf clubs". I do like that!
And interestingly, I find while playing I no longer leave my RH pinky down - it floats around wherever it wants to, which reduces limitations on the third finger. If I hold it down, I can feel less freedom of movement in R3.
I also note (by looking in the mirror, something I normally avoid), that I often leave R3 down, once I'm above G. That no doubt contributes some stability around playing ooo ooo. Interesting that I seem to leave that to look after itself, and it's been prepared to accept the responsibility!
