Chiff and Fipple Forums

Hello! I'm new to the forum. Boehm flute player to whistle to looking-to-buy an Irish flute.

I have Googled this question but just haven't come up with an answer that satisfies.

Why would I want one key (and the Eb key at that) on a flute? I'm sure there's an excellent reason, but I don't understand it yet. It doesn't add much to the flute's ability to play in other keys, does it?

Does it help the intonation or tone quality when playing mostly in the same keys you'd play in with a keyless flute? Can you ignore the one key if you want to and end up with the same sounds you'd get playing a keyless flute? (My intuition says yes to this last question since leaving the key closed seems like an identical situation to not having a hole there in the first place, but I don't trust my intuition on topics I know almost nothing about.)

I've seen a flute on the used market that I've not seriously considered even though it looked like a good instrument for me because I was just confused by that key and not sure that I want to be obliged to involve seven fingers in my playing if that would be the case in a one-key flute. I like not worrying about my little fingers on the whistle! Which is probably a little silly! Thanks for your help!

On a small holed flute you can play most notes to a good or very good quality by half-holing or fork fingerings. Eb is the one note that is pretty much impossible to play. The Eb key also opens up the E note, which is otherwise a bit weak, and is necessary for some third octave notes.

Historically, before the 4, 6 and 8 keys of the 19th Century, the baroque flute was exactly a one-key flute in which the other notes were played as above.

Personally, I would prefer that all keyless flutes came with an Eb key. But, keyless is fine for ITM music.

In addition to what tstermitz said, it helps with some notes in the third octave, although additional keys can be useful and/or necessary, depending on the flute. It also helps with the odd tune in E harmonic minor, such as The White Petticoat.

But the real question is: why would you want less than 6 keys?

KrisS wrote: ↑Thu Mar 16, 2023 4:18 am I've seen a flute on the used market that I've not seriously considered even though it looked like a good instrument for me because I was just confused by that key and not sure that I want to be obliged to involve seven fingers in my playing if that would be the case in a one-key flute. I like not worrying about my little fingers on the whistle! Which is probably a little silly! Thanks for your help!

You'd want to be sure that particular flute is intended for Irish music or whatever genre you're interested in. Baroque flutes (which may often have the 1-key for Eb) have a smaller embouchure hole than Irish flutes. They may also be at a different pitch (not A=440 or approximately so) for playing period music.

tstermitz wrote: ↑Thu Mar 16, 2023 12:34 pm On a small holed flute you can play most notes to a good or very good quality by half-holing or fork fingerings. Eb is the one note that is pretty much impossible to play.

That makes sense! I play whistle but not with other people and haven't really gotten into half-holing yet other than as a more convenient way to get to a C nat sometimes. So I forgot that you actually can get to plenty of notes outside the D scale without keys. Thank you!

Flutern wrote: ↑Thu Mar 16, 2023 3:14 pm In addition to what tstermitz said, it helps with some notes in the third octave, although additional keys can be useful and/or necessary, depending on the flute. It also helps with the odd tune in E harmonic minor, such as The White Petticoat.

But the real question is: why would you want less than 6 keys?

Well, that was pretty much my thought! If I'm going to have a key, why just one?

These days I've got three young kids (two with extra needs) at home and am really just making music for myself. There's so much I can do without keys when it comes to solo practice that I don't think I'll miss them much. And since I'm selling my Boehm flute to fund it, I can get a really nice keyless flute or a very questionable keyed flute with my budget right now.

I'm definitely planning on a keyed instrument and lessons and trying to get involved with my local ITM community when the kiddos are older!

kkrell wrote: ↑Thu Mar 16, 2023 7:27 pm You'd want to be sure that particular flute is intended for Irish music or whatever genre you're interested in. Baroque flutes (which may often have the 1-key for Eb) have a smaller embouchure hole than Irish flutes. They may also be at a different pitch (not A=440 or approximately so) for playing period music.

Thanks! I appreciate it!

The Baroque flute was mentioned above, and I should point out that the standard Baroque flute had just the one key for Eb/D#.

The reason is that the Baroque flute, a fully chromatic instrument, achieved every note except Eb through "fork" fingerings.

When other keys were added, the F natural key, the G# key, and the Bb key, their purpose was to make the playing of trills easier. Those notes, when occurring as part of the melody, continued to be done with the traditional "fork" fingerings.

It was only after the standard practice became to perform F, G#, and Bb melody notes with the keys, that the six original open fingerholes and the bore could be enlarged, increasing the flute's loudness.

Making a big-bore big-hole mid-19th century style wooden flute with only the Eb key is an anachronism. These flutes were made with at least the four keys necessary for a chromatic instrument (C natural often being reckoned good enough to not require a key).

However small-bore small-hole one-key flutes continued to be made throughout the 19th century. These were cheap mass-produced flutes for amateur and hobbyist players.

For Irish music nearly everybody wants the big-bore big-hole mid-19th century style flutes.

Opinions vary but if I were to get only one key it would be for F natural.

If I were to get two keys they would be F natural and G sharp.

All of the above, and this. These flutes ARE de facto Baroque flutes. Baroque music and much classical sound brilliant on these flutes. Bach is God singing. The Eb key enables you to play a much wider range of music.

These flutes ARE de facto Baroque flutes.

I have spoken to at least two makers of baroque flutes in the past who thought 19th century English flutes were an aberration. YMMV, ofcourse.

Several flute players who use 'original' instruments for music from the 18th and 19th centuries illustrate the progression of flutes over the period on youtube. Here is one: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ptQJdIv2uUI If you are lucky youtube may offer to others after it. More info here: http://www.oldflutes.com/

I think if I wanted a recent flute where keys were important for the third octave I would also want to check that the maker had not optimised it for the bottom two octaves at the expense of the third, which may be that case for a design aimed at traditional players. I get by with a modern four-key for trad (though I do have an antique 8-key). Any challenges above the second octave B are more my lack of practice than the flute.

Mr.Gumby wrote: ↑Sat Mar 18, 2023 2:47 am
I have spoken to at least two makers of baroque flutes in the past who thought 19th century English flutes were an aberration.

I suppose any evolution will be considered progress by some and unnecessary tinkering by others.

Let's not forget that Baroque flutes were themselves a marked departure from the way flutes had been made for centuries.

The Hotteterre family have been credited for taking the traditional flute (what we could call a Renaissance flute today) which had a large straight bore and large fingerholes and reducing the fingerholes and constricting the bore at the bottom in order to allow the chromatic semitones to be produced by fork fingerings. Thus the Baroque flute was born. (The Hotteterres did the same with the bassoon, oboe, clarinet, and bagpipes by the way, adding keys as needed.)

When by around 1800 keywork made fork fingerings and the concomitant tiny holes and constricted bore unnecessary the flute began returning to its pre-Baroque fingerhole size and bore.

As the 19th century progressed the bore continued to widen but it was Boehm who made the final return to the pre-Baroque cylindrical bore.

But no, Irish flutes aren't Baroque flutes, but in essence copies of c1830-1880 English and American orchestral 8-key wood flutes.

I played "Irish flute" for 35 years and never played an "Irish flute". By first flute was an original c1830 Rudall & Rose and my second flute was a c1860 Pratten model, both London made. Both instruments were designed and made for orchestral use.

I agree with almost everything you said pancelticpiper, but I believe the following statement about Renaissance flutes having a large bore and large finger holes is not correct. My understanding is that Renaissance flutes had a narrow cylindrical bore and small finger holes. The narrow bore and small finger holes being a critical design choice that enabled notes in the upper part of the second octave, and those in the third octave, to be played in tune, through the use of forked fingerings. The move to a conical bore in Baroque flutes allowed those upper second octave notes to be played with the same fingerings as in the lower octave.

In other words, the new conical bore shape for Baroque flutes corrected for the wide octaves that are inherent to a cylindrical bore design. The Renaissance flute's bore, being cylindrical, was inherently subject to this wide octave problem, but the problem was solved in Renaissance flutes by using different (forked) fingering for upper second octave notes that would normally be flat. As a result, Renaissance flutes could play in tune well into the third octave. But this only works if the tone holes are small enough and the bore narrow enough. Once you do this, the flute is quite tricky to play, half holing is difficult and those notes are weak, and overall the flute, while having a nice reedy tone, is quite quiet. By using a conical bore, baroque flutes could use a larger bore, larger finger holes, and more simplified fingering, allowing for a louder flute with more uniformity in tone across notes.

As we move to classical flutes (conical bore, keys, etc) we keep pushing in that same direction. The use of keys removes the need for the remaining forked fingerings of the baroque flute, enabling the use of larger tone holes and bores, so the flutes became louder, more uniform in tone across notes, easier to play. But at this stage, they are no longer baroque flutes (when you take the keys off and block the keyed holes), because the forked fingerings don't produce in tune notes due to the larger tone holes. This is why a keyless Irish flute, or a 1-key 19th century flute, isn't a baroque flute, as you quite rightly said.

Then we push further in the same direction again with the Boehm design, where tone holes are sized and located such that the first open tone hole effectively terminates the bore length for each note, and because of that it was no longer possible to cover them directly using fingers. In this design, forked fingerings are completely ineffective, by definition.

So, I guess the point I'm trying to make is that the Renaissance flute was actually a much more sophisticated design than people typically give it credit for, and the narrow bore and small tone holes were inherent features of that design that allowed it to play in tune well into the third octave. When you look at it this way you see that a Renaissance flute and a Bansuri flute are really fundamentally different designs: the bansuri being a large cylindrical bore with large tone holes and large embouchure hole, and the Renaissance flute being small cylindrical bore with small tone holes and a small embouchure hole.

Well, sorry to nit-pick like this and drag the thread off track a bit, but, well, I think this kind of detail is quite interesting. Hopefully, I'm not the only one!

pancelticpiper wrote: ↑Sat Mar 18, 2023 10:57 am The Hotteterre family have been credited for taking the traditional flute (what we could call a Renaissance flute today) which had a large straight bore and large fingerholes and reducing the fingerholes and constricting the bore at the bottom in order to allow the chromatic semitones to be produced by fork fingerings. Thus the Baroque flute was born. (The Hotteterres did the same with the bassoon, oboe, clarinet, and bagpipes by the way, adding keys as needed.)

jim stone wrote: ↑Fri Mar 17, 2023 5:34 pm All of the above, and this. These flutes ARE de facto Baroque flutes. Baroque music and much classical sound brilliant on these flutes. Bach is God singing. The Eb key enables you to play a much wider range of music.

I play a baroque flute as well as antique rudalls, and I agree the second sentence is false. The differences are not merely nominal. I do think the rest is true--though of course there will be people better at baroque music than I am who may disagree. I can testify with certainty that one of the most blissful experiences of my life is playing baroque music on antique rudalls, which is what carried me away. A lot of exquisite baroque music is available on Youtube videos and can be learned aurally, as we learn celtic tunes. It takes work, but so does ITM. The Eb key makes accessible some of the most beautiful music ever written.

Because Eb is the impossible note absent a key. The others can be achieved to varying degrees by flute ninja (half holing, cross fingerings and embouchure adjustment).

For Irish Traditional music, Eb is exceptionally rare. So you can get away without it.

It’s better to have (all) keys if playing chromatically than to try to learn the Baroque style playing. Keyed notes are stronger, more in tune, easier and can be played quicker in passing. Obviously a really skilled Baroque flute player will disagree - but there is a steeper and longer learning curve to achieve mastery without the keys.