Paul Roche -style

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gorjuswrex
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Paul Roche -style

Post by gorjuswrex »

Paul Roche (Stockton's wing). Very attracted to his style.

example
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4XjYgyezBuM

Love the 'close' playing here by the trio.

I used Audacity to slow it down to hear the nuances better.

Any comments please?

Kevin
Last edited by gorjuswrex on Wed Apr 13, 2022 9:26 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Paul Roche -style

Post by Mr.Gumby »

Love the 'close' playing here by the trio.
Solid and pretty much straightforward. They had been playing together forever, obviously. Sonny Murray was Roche's father in law.
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Re: Paul Roche -style

Post by gorjuswrex »

Nice to get some background and to learn the family relationship.
I love the 'straight forward' approach / phrasing.
I am experimenting at getting that slightly softer tone. Partly down to the earlier style of flute but should be able to get close on a later style too.
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Re: Paul Roche -style

Post by Mr.Gumby »

Nice to get some background and to learn the family relationship.
It's handy to have some context. Roche and Hanrahan are cousins as well. They had a Ceiliband when they were in secondary school I believe, the St Michael's Villas Ceiliband. They all go back a long way.

I have Geraldine Cotter's thesis here on music in Ennis. There's more context to be found in that (I have a PDF though and my eyes don't agree too well with on screen reading these days so I have only dipped into that but it shows a lot of the interconnections between musicians).

I am experimenting at getting that slightly softer tone.
It has been quite a while since I heard Roche up close but I don't remember his playing as 'softer' toned, there was quite a bit of power there, if I recall correctly. Not particularly huffy or honky but I m not sure I would go with 'softer' as a descriptor. I think I know what you are getting at though.

I believe Paul Roche went through Frank Custy's hands. Frank taught music, not so much the instruments: he let his pupils figure out things for themselves while learning the tunes. It's the old fashioned approach and it paid off too.


[inserted link to doctoral thesis]
Last edited by Mr.Gumby on Wed Apr 13, 2022 4:47 am, edited 2 times in total.
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gorjuswrex
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Re: Paul Roche -style

Post by gorjuswrex »

It has been quite a while since I heard Roche up close but I don't remember his playing as 'softer' toned, there was quite a bit of power there, if I recall correctly. Not particularly huffy or honky but I m not sure I would go with 'softer' as a descriptor. I think I know what you are getting at though.
True . I put slightly softer in italic. Almost seems like a slightly softer edge to the tone or attack of the note.
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Re: Paul Roche -style

Post by gorjuswrex »

I suppose the setting comes into play too.

What instruments are playing, their volume, and especially the level of background noise. Also is flute amplified or not. In the right setting the fluter can consider tone and colour , but when the in-laws and outlaws are all out , no choice but give it stick.
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Re: Paul Roche -style

Post by GreenWood »

Off the cusp, it came across as very balanced and each player complimenting the whole, delightful to listen to.

I would say rounded instead of soft (?) .
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Re: Paul Roche -style

Post by gorjuswrex »

Yes that fits better. A rounded tone rather than a slightly more harsh tone maybe.
Something surprised me, while noodling for a similar tone on my flute. By aiming to the right of centre of the blow hole ( struggle to spell the French word) helps. The flute Paul Roche is playing is a slightly earlier style than the ones more commonly used for Irish trad. It would have more of a 'tendancy' to that tone I would think. Depends on the driver too of course.
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Re: Paul Roche -style

Post by GreenWood »

I'm not sure what flute he is playing, but I think the effects of positioning carry through to most flutes with wider embouchure (the trouble I have is if anyone is talking flute embouchure or player embouchure) to some degree...but I think each player has to find the combination that works for them though because as you say, player embouchures are so variable. So for example, on a Rudall style flute, I find the very cleanest sound blowing straight across. I am able to choose between softness or roundness or resonance by changing pressure, player embouchure size, lower lip cover, and to some degree the angle of roll (because for any of the others the roll possible is limited to quite a narrow range). Some of those will change the tuning also. Those are a whole load of combination of variables already. When I add in a change in angle to centerline, it tends to lift the pitch of lowest notes and allows slightly gentler playing while still reaching a nice sound... if that makes sense.

I don't know...it is almost frustrating to try to describe, however I find exploring the different sounds and ways of playing any flute fun, and I will choose tunes for a specific flute, that I like playing on that flute, and not play them on any other. That includes tunes that have very different sounds to them (as played by whoever I am learning them from). Maybe that is a good way to learn, I don't know...but I know how for example Tailor's Twist is to sound per favourite example, and have learned to play it to that gentler cleaner sound, just by finding that sound on the flute. Then another, say Bush Hornpipe, is more expressive and resonant, and so it prefers a slightly different embouchure and positioning. So now when I pick up the flute I know how to go straight to either of those. It is just to say that it is possible, not too difficult, but takes some time and attention before it seems natural...I would pick one song of a certain chosen style , not too fast and with a clear recording of just flute, and over time just try to find how closely you are able to play it, not as something to succeed at but more as something to compare own ability to, which can then be as challenging or fun as chosen...but hopefully not frustrating.

...and I'm giving advice, which is probably not a good idea because of my level of playing... but as it is really only about tone... and because I think it would be very difficult to give any better guidance unless from a professional player present and attentive to every detail....

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Re: Paul Roche -style

Post by busterbill »

I really do love this style of playing. It is rich in tone and melody. I know many are more attracted to the harder edged "burrrr" with some players, or the ornamental octave jumps. But this straightforward wealth of musicality is my personal favorite. It is difficult to put into words.

I bet there are some flute experts here or on some of the Irish music Facebook pages who would be able to tell you who make that flute and approximately when. It appears to have originally been an 8 key flute with Ivory rings made in what we would now automatically call the Rudall style. Whether it is a Rudall or made by another maker is outside my expertise. One ring appears to be younger than the other, but that is not uncommon as Ivory sometimes cracks. It appears very dark, but it could be cocus. Cocus does have a wonderful tone. Though it starts out slightly browner it can age to black.

You could start a "What flute is Paul Roche playing here" thread if you want to do a deep dive.
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Re: Paul Roche -style

Post by gorjuswrex »

I think one reason I posted is I find the style very refreshing. I don't mean to knock the styles that have, what would we say, stand out variations, super dexterity etc. I appreciate all that too when done with taste, as so many players can.
I saw one post on a fiddle forum somewhere. They said that it didn't matter how long you have been playing for there is always some young one who can do it better. They said it made them feel like they should stop playing. Probably not a very serious remark. It would be very sad if people really felt like that I think. The amasingly young young fiddler was totally outstanding and lovely style. IMHO competitions have been great . It is also lovely that those who deservdly win are normally very modest , humble and encouraging of others.
My guess is most of us would say this smashing music is just as brilliant, even without the maybe more obviously 'virtuoso' element.
Maybe we don't hear enough sweet, honest to God music like the trio here play?
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Re: Paul Roche -style

Post by Flutern »

gorjuswrex wrote: Wed Apr 13, 2022 4:05 am The flute Paul Roche is playing is a slightly earlier style than the ones more commonly used for Irish trad. It would have more of a 'tendancy' to that tone I would think. Depends on the driver too of course.
This flute was discussed on the FHC a while back: it is a Rudall & Rose.
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Re: Paul Roche -style

Post by gorjuswrex »

I thought it was a Rudall and Rose. I would like to see that discussion , sorry I might be the only one who does not know, what is FHC , may I ask please?
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Re: Paul Roche -style

Post by gorjuswrex »

I have it !
Found it with help of Google
Facebook , flute history channel
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Re: Paul Roche -style

Post by Flutern »

gorjuswrex wrote: Mon Apr 18, 2022 3:35 am I have it !
Found it with help of Google
Facebook , flute history channel
Sorry, I should have been more explicit :oops:. Here is the link to the relevant discussion on Facebook, but since the Flute History Channel is a private group, you'll need to register to be able to access it, unfortunately :(
https://www.facebook.com/groups/Flute.H ... 606082757/
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