Question for those with Morvan Flutes

[est]

Hiya folks,

I purchased a Morvan Flute from a member about a year ago. It's been a great instrument so far, but it's intonation is starting to get sour. Low G and the high G are different by at least a quarter pitch, and I suspect it's the end cork.

The problem is that my flute doesn't have any mechanism to adjust the position like my Aine does. How does one adjust the cork's position?

[Nanohedron]

The problem is that my flute doesn't have any mechanism to adjust the position like my Aine does. How does one adjust the cork's position?

I used to remove the endcap for full access and use a 1/4" diameter wood dowel, in this case the cleaning rod (who says they're single-purpose?). So long as the dowel has a flat end - they usually do - and is long enough to be helpful, it's a matter of pushing the cork this way or that by direct animal force which, by the way, shouldn't be that much at all. Sometimes there'll be a lot of reassembling the flute until you get that sweet spot. With all that fiddling-about, the invention of the mechanical end cap was inevitable. BUT! The good news is that it can be done, and it's pretty basic. Maybe there might even be an extra sense of satisfaction from getting hands-on with it. Think of it as getting in touch with your ancienter flute ancestors.

I never used slotted rods, so I don't know, but I think it's reasonable to assume that the butt end could be similarly employed.

[Terry McGee]

Hi est

Good to measure the current location of the stopper (the cork) before moving it, just in case you want to move it back to the same place. Offer your cleaning rod (or anything else that will fit) up the bore until stopped by the stopper, make a pencil mark on it through the middle of the embouchure hole. Then slide the rod out again and measure from its end to the mark you made. We'd normally expect that distance to be around the 3/4", 19mm mark. What was it?

When pushing the stopper, I prefer to use the thickest rod that will fit, so that you are not at risk of poking a hole in the cork. Alternatively, drop the biggest coin or other disc that you have that will fit, and push the centre of the coin.

In terms of what distance to aim for, I go with this guide. Start with 19mm (3/4") and test the intonation. If high notes are going flatter than average, reduce the stopper distance. If they seem OK or sharp, increase the distance. This tends to improve the bass response too.

Let us know how you get on.

[est]

Thank you both for the quick replies. I've put in an order for a way to measure the distance more accurately than using my thumb on the end of the cleaning rod :O Those are hard to write down on paper.

Just an extra tidbit in case it matters. The headjoint is lined with metal in case that makes a difference.

Also, a largely newbie question related to a weak embouchured, inexpereined living in a place where there are no actual Flute instructors: should the flute's low G and High G be able to be pretty close in tune with a well made modern flute or is there always the expectation that intonation is handled, at least in part, by the embouchure? I assume that it should be possible, but don't want to end up making a mess of things if I'm wrong.

[Conical bore]

I'm no expert, but I have read consistent advice that you should match the lower and upper octave G notes to find a good cork position. Works for me anyway.

FWIW, I also try to use the G note on my flute to set the tuning slide, instead of using the A note at 440 Hz. Your mileage may vary, but on my flute it results in better overall intonation than using the A note, which seems to be a little squirrely with just the tiniest change in embouchure. If I'm practicing alone I'll use an electronic tuner on the G note. If I'm playing along with my Significant Other fiddler at home, I'll ask her to hit a G harmonic after she tunes her fiddle, and I'll match that note by ear with the tuning slide.

[david_h]

I set mine as described here by a forum member: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rtEEvuXnJ5M Worked for me.

I find that changing the pitch of the lower G with embouchure - deliberately or otherwise - is much easier than changing that of the higher G. So I set the tuning slide using the high G.

[Nanohedron]

FWIW, I also try to use the G note on my flute to set the tuning slide, instead of using the A note at 440 Hz. Your mileage may vary, but on my flute it results in better overall intonation than using the A note ... If I'm playing along with my Significant Other fiddler at home, I'll ask her to hit a G harmonic after she tunes her fiddle, and I'll match that note by ear with the tuning slide.

That's the way I did it, too - for the same reasons, and it was regardless of the flute. Tuning to the G just seemed to offer better results flute-wise, at least for my ear.

As to est's last question: In getting flutes to play in tune with themselves, there's always going to be a certain amount of "lipping", which is to say embouchure adjustment, but in my experience it shouldn't have to be extreme; one should hardly notice, if at all. But consider: simply by changing octaves, one is already not only changing air pressure, but the embouchure too - or so it should be; to get a high G, one doesn't simply blow harder, but rather one increases the air jet's speed like a thumb over the end of a hose, by way of the lips - so if after cork adjustment there's still an intonation issue between octaves, it may be that one's embouchure changes might be over- or under-compensating. Unfortunately there's not much in the way of hard-and-fast pointers on this, as everyone's embouchure is different, so all we can do is point in the general direction. That means you have to find your own way through, but at least you're not flying totally blind.

[david_h]

That means you have to find your own way through, but at least you're not flying totally blind.

Something I found informative was to experiment with blowing the notes, in both octaves, either side of the correct pitch whilst watching a tuner and thinking about how much effort it seemed to be. Then setting the tuning slide to get the right pitch where it was most comfortable. When playing I tend to blow my notes into into tune with other players and I adjust the tuning side if that seems to be getting hard to do.

[Nanohedron]

Something I found informative was to experiment with blowing the notes, in both octaves, either side of the correct pitch whilst watching a tuner and thinking about how much effort it seemed to be. Then setting the tuning slide to get the right pitch where it was most comfortable.

That sounds useful. Normally I'm tuner-averse and so must rely on my ears (luckily no one in the trenches seems to have ever complained, FWIW), but your method would likely have been a good help when I was starting out and finding my legs.

[tstermitz]

Nano made the point that playing high G means increasing the airspeed. But, that may also increase the pitch, especially with an inexperienced embouchure. Also, you may be covering too much or too little of the embouchure, which affects the octaves differently.

Yes, it's recommended to have a teacher, even a Boehm or baroque teacher at the start to steer you straight.

[Ben Shaffer]

Ive got a cork in one of my wood Flutes. Its got a wood endcap and then a Cork on the inside. The cork slides pretty smoothly and is not super tight. I then use a cleaning Rod like Terry suggests. I don't use a Pencil as this swap stick as is dark Plastic. So Iv'e wrapped a little of the bright Blue painting tape at I believe 18mm or Maybe 19m, point as the distance from the middle of the embouchure to the cork Most of the Flutes I've had seem happy at 18mm or 19MM, I may move the distance around a little, but then I play a few Tunes and I can feel if its easier to play and the notes in tune Playing a tune will tell yo the correct placement.This Flute is a very old Rosewood 1 Key Sweetheart Flute and it sounds delightful playing Irish Tunes or 18th century tunes
I know some Flute Makers use fixed position Corks. I would think this would be fine for Delrin Flute, but not wood
OK I've rambled on enough

[est]

Hiya folks,

Lots of great tips. I did watch Jem's video and his advice matched what I had been told. I think the severity was probably cold weather related. Basically, I am taking an Irish music class (taught by a fiddler...attended almost solely by fiddlers) and the last class was on a really cold night...so 30 minutes or more in a car. My Gs and As were terribly wide even after blowing into the flute for a couple of minutes. There isn't really anywhere to play and warm up, so I suspect the flute never really got warm.

I do have an ellis essential (no tuning slide and no keys) and the G and A are really close in both octaves.

So, I think my lesson here is....don't tune until you are warmed up. Does that sound like a correct rule?

[Nanohedron]

So, I think my lesson here is....don't tune until you are warmed up. Does that sound like a correct rule?

I think I'd argue in favor of that.

I played outside in winter a couple of times, but didn't repeat the experience after that; no harm done, but I didn't like the feeling of dread. What I had done, though, was play indoors for a while beforehand, so to my surprise the outdoor conditions had little effect so long as I kept playing.

[busterbill]

If you follow the instructions in Jem's video you should be good.

As for weak embouchures, for decades I used to play every day for hours. When Covid hit and sessions ended I slowed way down on my flute and started messing about with my fiddle and a little bit of whistle, etc. I have been encouraging myself to play flute more in the past month or so and I have found I need to do a lot of rebuilding of my embouchure. I noticed that my flute seemed out of tune with itself. But since I have 3 good flutes and a couple of beaters I sat down and played them all. They were all consistently "off." This confirmed that, in my case, it was indeed me.