A unique Pratten style flute :-D

The Chiff & Fipple Irish Flute on-line community. Sideblown for your protection.
User avatar
Terry McGee
Posts: 2386
Joined: Sun Dec 12, 2004 4:12 pm
Please enter the next number in sequence: 1
Location: Malua Bay, on the NSW Nature Coast
Contact:

Re: A unique Pratten style flute :-D

Post by Terry McGee »

GreenWood wrote: Mon Nov 08, 2021 9:03 am I didn't have a satellite dish in mind exactly though, what came to mind was to get a good transition of whatever kind parabola might be better than straight cone. So for example any suitable part of a parabola could be used
And that was the sense in which Boehm used it. Your example on the left is pretty much what he did.
Designers and inventors, as well as musicians, are often doted with much imagination, and I suppose Carte was no exception :-D
I think that is the kindest possible way to interpret Carte. He was a very good business man. But I don't get a warm and fuzzy feeling about him.
User avatar
Terry McGee
Posts: 2386
Joined: Sun Dec 12, 2004 4:12 pm
Please enter the next number in sequence: 1
Location: Malua Bay, on the NSW Nature Coast
Contact:

Re: A unique Pratten style flute :-D

Post by Terry McGee »

kkrell wrote: Mon Nov 08, 2021 1:32 am Apparently the parabolic reflector is also able to exceed the speed of light. Impressive. :lol:
Heh heh, indeed. Einstein came up with quite a different view about the speed of light sometime later. But he was a fiddle player, so what would he know?
GreenWood
Posts: 59
Joined: Thu Aug 12, 2021 11:00 pm
antispam: No
Please enter the next number in sequence: 8
Tell us something.: To add to the renaissance flute discussion that is under way. Well, the rest of this field is going to be taken up by a long sentence, which is this one, because a hundred characters are needed before it is accepted.

Re: A unique Pratten style flute :-D

Post by GreenWood »

Terry McGee wrote: Mon Nov 08, 2021 5:52 pm
And that was the sense in which Boehm used it. Your example on the left is pretty much what he did.
I just sketched up that picture without labels so my error, but the pic on left was supposed to be a parabolic bore with cylindrical headpiece. Maybe inverse parabola would be more suited for bore though, like reverse reaming of foot is done ? I don't know...it was just an idea is all :-) .

As for Carte... "Oh!"... but I suppose kind words are hard somehow on those who aren't sincere, or something like that ?
GreenWood
Posts: 59
Joined: Thu Aug 12, 2021 11:00 pm
antispam: No
Please enter the next number in sequence: 8
Tell us something.: To add to the renaissance flute discussion that is under way. Well, the rest of this field is going to be taken up by a long sentence, which is this one, because a hundred characters are needed before it is accepted.

Re: A unique Pratten style flute :-D

Post by GreenWood »

Sedi wrote: Mon Nov 08, 2021 12:51 pm I would prefer cross fingering over half holing for accidentals. But it's just not possible for some notes (even on the baroque flute some cross fingered notes need to be corrected by the player because they are too sharp). I think that is the reason some flute designs ad just one more hole at the bottom (slightly different from the baroque flute however) which makes some cross fingerings for the low notes possible (like the Japanese Shinobue and German marching Band flutes for instance). But that changes many other fingerings as well.
Cross fingering always seemed to me to be suited to stylised (say classical) music, and half-holing more improvised, freer, or make do ? I don't mind either but each has its limits also (e.g. speed or accuracy or tone ) ? For some music styles they suit, for others they don't seem to mix in well. Keys overcome much of that but they also lack some colour and feel that was present, so there is no one answer to it all I think.

I'm not much of a musical theorist or whatever name is used to describe studying styles of playing and so on, though I do listen to the music and appreciate the qualities of the different instruments, and their evolution. Anyway, I'll put down three links that go into more detail of the background realities than

www.oldflutes.com

which also covers the range well. Starting with renaissance flute

https://gtmusicalinstruments.com/an-int ... nce-flute/

and then an idea of what was going on in baroque times

https://gtmusicalinstruments.com/traver ... h-century/

and then on to Nicholson style

https://www.academia.edu/6447630/Charle ... lute_Sound

Which is also covered in great detail at Terry Mcgee's site

http://www.mcgee-flutes.com/

with its classification of makers and instruments of the day. I thought I'd just post up the links, even though we have some idea, because to others it will be new. Actually I should just post this as a separate topic for anyone to add links or essays to...studies on flutes, flute evolution and styles or something similar. Many academic texts are unbearably long, but some include very pertinent information of various kinds. Not trying to say anything really, just padding out the theme.
User avatar
Sedi
Posts: 973
Joined: Sun May 01, 2016 6:54 am
antispam: No
Please enter the next number in sequence: 8
Tell us something.: Practice, practice, practice. You're never too old to learn.
Keep on fluting.
---u---o-o-o--o-o-o--
-----------------------

Re: A unique Pratten style flute :-D

Post by Sedi »

GreenWood wrote: Tue Nov 09, 2021 7:29 amthere is no one answer to it all I think.
Probably right. IMO keys where none are needed make an instrument overly complicated. But they do solve some "issues" (if they are seen as such -- some actually prefer the different colors of tone on the baroque flute over the more evenly voiced Böhm flute).
I have a couple of interesting links, too but I don't wanna spam your thread. Maybe I can post them in the resources-thread you posted?
GreenWood
Posts: 59
Joined: Thu Aug 12, 2021 11:00 pm
antispam: No
Please enter the next number in sequence: 8
Tell us something.: To add to the renaissance flute discussion that is under way. Well, the rest of this field is going to be taken up by a long sentence, which is this one, because a hundred characters are needed before it is accepted.

Re: A unique Pratten style flute :-D

Post by GreenWood »

Sedi wrote: Tue Nov 09, 2021 8:26 am
GreenWood wrote: Tue Nov 09, 2021 7:29 amthere is no one answer to it all I think.
Probably right. IMO keys where none are needed make an instrument overly complicated. But they do solve some "issues" (if they are seen as such -- some actually prefer the different colors of tone on the baroque flute over the more evenly voiced Böhm flute).
I have a couple of interesting links, too but I don't wanna spam your thread. Maybe I can post them in the resources-thread you posted?

The simpler and closer to the player the better in my opinion.

Go ahead with the links by all means, and this post is turning into a bit of a chat anyway. I should put up a new post just on the topic though so that others can find info in one place. Same goes with the flutebuilding resources post I started, for now I just concentrate on where I am at on it, but there are quite a few links I will throw in there later, just odds and ends that might interest or inspire people. It takes ages to find some of these links online sometimes, so to have somewhere where there is a bit more of a curated choice and in one place is a help...at least that is what I find, often footnotes or "further links" give direction to other information that would not otherwise be found.

:thumbsup:

Ed.In. I started a broad thread on that topic

viewtopic.php?f=2&t=112832
GreenWood
Posts: 59
Joined: Thu Aug 12, 2021 11:00 pm
antispam: No
Please enter the next number in sequence: 8
Tell us something.: To add to the renaissance flute discussion that is under way. Well, the rest of this field is going to be taken up by a long sentence, which is this one, because a hundred characters are needed before it is accepted.

Re: A unique Pratten style flute :-D

Post by GreenWood »

Sedi wrote: Tue Nov 09, 2021 8:26 am
GreenWood wrote: Tue Nov 09, 2021 7:29 amthere is no one answer to it all I think.
Probably right. IMO keys where none are needed make an instrument overly complicated. But they do solve some "issues" (if they are seen as such -- some actually prefer the different colors of tone on the baroque flute over the more evenly voiced Böhm flute).
I have a couple of interesting links, too but I don't wanna spam your thread. Maybe I can post them in the resources-thread you posted?

For tonehole spacing...I don't know if this has been tried before, I did a quick search for spiral flute and nothing. The closest was this

https://seashellmusic.com

I know curved extensions are used and work for bass flutes.

So this is an idea to bring toneholes closer for your flutes if you are still in to playing around with design etc. It is a spiral tube (say copper to start, or 3d printed etc.... and which I don't know how to draw as design properly but the idea is simple enough) that fits into a say alu. case. This means flute tube dia. is smaller, but volume can be from embouchure, and toneholes kept large I think also. Length of tube is most responsible for freq. , not diameter.


In 1 it rests on casing and forms emb.
In 2 it opens to form a soundbox.
In 3 I drew how wide toneholes could feasibly be, obviously with tube sealed around to inside of flute. If width is needed for sensitivity to finger placement for getting half hole note then it could be smaller at actual tube maybe and widen towards casing... if it needs lots of venting for half hole then larger hole as shown I guess.
In 4 just straight tonehole.

Smaller tube is going to change the tone a little probably, I don't know how...I would play with designs like this myself... a 50cm long flute in low A ? .... but I'm staying with wood for flutes.

There is an optimal tube diameter for pitch vs tone, and that means any flute is a compromise in that sense for having notes of different pitch. So that is why a larger box at head might help depth of a note and probably volume . Equally simply adding a bit of helix instead of tight full spiral might be enough for finger spacing and allow a larger tube diameter ? I could even imagine a disc flute, made with a flat spiral and held like ocarina. Another question though is if anyone would want to play them...but for those who like making things...

I'm not sure how practical any of these ideas would be in reality to make. I don't guarantee they will work, and I don't mean to waste anyone's time should they not, so better to think it through or read up or calculate if not up to trial and error :-)


Image
User avatar
Sedi
Posts: 973
Joined: Sun May 01, 2016 6:54 am
antispam: No
Please enter the next number in sequence: 8
Tell us something.: Practice, practice, practice. You're never too old to learn.
Keep on fluting.
---u---o-o-o--o-o-o--
-----------------------

Re: A unique Pratten style flute :-D

Post by Sedi »

Yamaha did something similar with the "Venova" to bring tone holes closer together. I no longer make flutes -- at least not at the moment (I might make a few for friends and family but only one person in my family does play the flute and I already gave him 2 :D ). The design I made works perfectly. And that was more or less my goal -- make a great sounding flute that I will play for the rest of my life and on which I can play any type of music I want to from classical to Irish.
Since I decided against making them to sell them (considering you can get flutes 3d-printed nowadays I think the demand for what I do dwindles to zero) -- I don't need to improve tonehole-spacing :D .
The next step would of course be what you are doing -- wooden flutes. But I don't have the tools and necessary space. Maybe one day ... one can always dream.
Considering your ideas -- a smaller diameter would change the tone quite a lot but there is one more problem -- and it's a big one: It will change the balancing of the octaves and make it almost impossible to get 2 octaves in tune without further tweaks when using a cylindrical bore.
I tried making a flute from an aluminimum tube with 3mm wall thickness (to simulate wood and the chimney-effect of the holes) and 19mm inner diameter. The octaves are brought in tune with a "trick" I adopted from German marching band flutes -- a "tuning rod" on the inside of the head which reduces the diameter -- so it more or less simulates a tapered bore in the head. But it weakens the tone quite a bit. The flute plays nicely in tune and easily into the 3rd octave but the tone is just too weak. It's a similar effect as a Fajardo wedge. I experimented with those, too but was never satisfied with the results.
So I switched to 23mm inner diameter tubes and achieved tuning with a careful balance of size of the tone holes, stopper position and size and shape of the embouchure hole. The "wiggle"-room for changes on the design is rather small however if it should sound like an "Irish" flute with enough oomph in the first octave.
Post Reply