Does anyone know why glottal and not T?

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est
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Does anyone know why glottal and not T?

Post by est »

I have seen this referenced before, that Ts were not typically used when playing traditional Irish music, but instead, the glottal stop, which I've never really known how to do until watching a youtube video this morning. I decided to look into it after watching the video lesson from Brendan Mulholland that rama linked out to in another thread.

I try to avoid hard stops when I play most tunes, but I do find them helpful for some types of playing, especially if I want it to have a nice, aggressive bite to it. I think the T does allow for the burst of air to "overdrive" the flute's embouchure a bit, providing a bit of extra overtones that wouldn't normally be there without that stop.

I'll work on these glottals to see how they seem change things. Perhaps those are intended to give a clear stop without that dirty bite that I am actually using the Ts for? From my very limited experience, the halt isn't nearly as sudden, so it has a much softer effect. I can't do them particularly fast, but I'm not sure that's what is needed. It's certainly a challenge to do them in sync with the fingers, though, which I assume was the point of the exercise that Brendan recommended.
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Re: Does anyone know why glottal and not T?

Post by busterbill »

It always seemed to me to be a softer hard stop, if that makes any sense. Tonguing is so sharp and abrupt in comparison. Tonguing has its place but done too often it disrupts the flow of ITM.
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Re: Does anyone know why glottal and not T?

Post by Nanohedron »

est wrote: Sat Apr 17, 2021 10:36 am I can't do them particularly fast, but I'm not sure that's what is needed.
Right. In Trad-style playing (which is what I assume you're going for), you do most articulation with the rhythmic use of cuts and taps, not interrupted airflow. There are some opinions that the less T-ing or glottals you do, the better, and that they should mostly be reserved for an attack on the lone occasion of a special rhythmic emphasis, or to help with a pesky interval. A rat-a-tat succession of glottals is difficult, as you have discovered, nor IMO is it usually a good idea, style-wise (T-ing included) - although it can depend on the rare moment, and your ability. That said, to add to your arsenal there is a third option for breath articulation, and that is to make an open-throated snap of air from the diaphragm. It's the same mechanism as when you chuckle, only controlled for pinpoint accuracy. It has its uses especially in rhythmic playing, if you care to master it.
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Re: Does anyone know why glottal and not T?

Post by cac »

I think there has been a greater variety of approaches to articulation in Irish flute playing than is usually thought to be the case, and this has been true for some time (at least since the 1920s I believe). There are very good players, such as June McCormack (and Niall Keegan?), who use no tonguing and also no glottals. They both do a lot of cuts, taps and rolls. Matt Molloy says he uses no tonguing but I believe uses some glottals. Kirsten Allstaff in her recent OAIM series on playing reels give exercises using 'k' tonguing instead of 't', and it sounds as if she uses this articulation when playing. Seamus Egan describes his glottals as 'k's. Shannon Heaton uses 'd' articulations sparingly (and uses no glottals). Eamonn Cotter and Aoife Granville both say they use tonguing, and I presume mean that they use 't' at least sometimes. However, I don't find it objectionable or even particularly noticeable in their playing. I've been experimenting with using 'k' in my own playing, and find that sometimes, in the excitement of playing a phrase where I want a strong articulation I use a 't'. I don't like the sound of it at all (in my own playing). It is too harsh, but why this harshness is more objectionable (at least to me) than the equally harsh glottals of Conal O'Grada or Harry Bradley I don't know. Perhaps it is because when I tongue with a 't' it is an isolated occurrence and so stands out as 'odd'. Chet
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Re: Does anyone know why glottal and not T?

Post by Nanohedron »

Yes, I'd forgotten about the Ks and Ds.
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Re: Does anyone know why glottal and not T?

Post by Sedi »

I have the teaching book by Conal Ograda, and he writes:
"Glottal stops are an integral part of some flute styles (e.g. Patsy Hanly, Catherine McEvoy, Harry Bradley, Matt Molloy and, of course, my own). Some players use a lot of Glottal Stops (I use them on almost every single note) while others do not use them at all (e.g. Aoife Granville)."
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Re: Does anyone know why glottal and not T?

Post by Nanohedron »

Sedi wrote: Sat Apr 17, 2021 3:43 pm I have the teaching book by Conal Ograda, and he writes:
"Glottal stops are an integral part of some flute styles (e.g. Patsy Hanly, Catherine McEvoy, Harry Bradley, Matt Molloy and, of course, my own). Some players use a lot of Glottal Stops (I use them on almost every single note) while others do not use them at all (e.g. Aoife Granville)."
Interesting. Ó Gráda wouldn't have grown up in a bubble, so I wonder how he came to that style. I only once heard his playing on a CD, and that was years ago, but what I do recall is that it was robustly rhythmic. I should have another listen.

..........

Despite my earlier opinion about breath articulation, I have to say I'm impressed. It's very subtle - so much so that it's as if it isn't there. Apart from on occasion, the only way I can detect it is if I compare his playing to more flowing styles.
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Re: Does anyone know why glottal and not T?

Post by jim stone »

To address the OP's question, permit me to speculate. We know that Irish flutes were orchestral flutes that were often sold to pawn shops in the 1870s, when the Boehm ultimately won the competition in symphony orchestras with the flutes we play. That's when Irish musicians could afford them and the Irish musicians who were most interested were bagpipers, this being the principal wind instrument already. Naturally they played flutes like bagpipes, e.g. flute ornamentation is significantly bagpipe ornamentation. Tonguing was anti-bagpipe, for obvious reasons, but using the breath to articulate was less so and you do have to breathe and in the right places playing flute. So glottal stops were the closest and most natural way to use the breath like the wind in a bagpipe. Also they sound good so glottal articulation became part of the tradition.
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Re: Does anyone know why glottal and not T?

Post by Conical bore »

Nanohedron wrote: Sat Apr 17, 2021 5:26 pm Interesting. Ó Gráda wouldn't have grown up in a bubble, so I wonder how he came to that style. I only once heard his playing on a CD, and that was years ago, but what I do recall is that it was robustly rhythmic. I should have another listen.
I have the Conal O'Grada tutor book and CD (really required reading and study for any aspiring ITM flute player), and he says this in the section about Glottal Stops on page 38:
It will take a bit of practice to develop the facility to execute glottals at this sustained tempo and to execute glottals of varying strength. Listening to the effect is the key here. Once your music ear knows the effect it wants to hear, the step to producing it is not so big. For me, this was like a eureka moment... this happened to me when I was about 12 years of age. I was sitting on the bonnet of my father's car at a fleadh cheoil ln the village of County Cork, practicing away when all of a sudden what I was trying to reproduce (after listening to recordings of the great John McKenna) suddenly started working for me. I remember jumping to the ground and amazement, and then climbing back up on the car just in case it had anything to do with it. It was a Volkswagen, in case anyone is interested.
The CD included with the book has him showing a tune played with glottal stops, and then ONLY the glottal stops, which is very useful in hearing what's going on because we can't see a CT scan of what's going on in a flute player's mouth.

Myself, I use glottal stops sparingly because I'm not that good at it, but I still use it and want to get better at it. It's a great technique if you can figure out how to combine it with your fingered articulations.

As for tonguing, I try to avoid it but I use a "fluttering" tongue for fast triplets in tunes like Brenda Stubbert's Reel or the D version of Toss the Feathers. It's not a hard T "Tak-A-Ta" it's a softer ""Da-Dil-A" sound. Just bouncing the tongue further back on the roof of the palate, if that makes sense.
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Re: Does anyone know why glottal and not T?

Post by Flutern »

Conical bore wrote: Sat Apr 17, 2021 7:19 pmThe CD included with the book has him showing a tune played with glottal stops, and then ONLY the glottal stops, which is very useful in hearing what's going on because we can't see a CT scan of what's going on in a flute player's mouth.
Here's the next best thing :-).
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Re: Does anyone know why glottal and not T?

Post by david_h »

gwuilleann wrote: Sat Apr 17, 2021 10:19 pmHere's the next best thing :-).
I think the video youtube moved onto for me https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Vabg-EUHOQk shows a couple of things. One that things are complicated and naming letter sounds in a post misses things. Another that an effect it can have in a tune is analogous to those two pronunciations of, for example, 'button' - it's a matter of one's musical accent.

And what about the full term 'glottal stop'? For me the 'glottal' is as much about the stop as the start. In Irish styles it is subtle but I think important. More obvious in styles that tend towards the staccato, which can be hard work on flute.
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Re: Does anyone know why glottal and not T?

Post by Flutern »

david_h wrote: Sun Apr 18, 2021 2:24 am And what about the full term 'glottal stop'? For me the 'glottal' is as much about the stop as the start. In Irish styles it is subtle but I think important. More obvious in styles that tend towards the staccato, which can be hard work on flute.
The reason why it's called "glottal stop" is because in phonetics, it's the name of the consonant produced with this articulation: it's glottal because it's produced with the glottis (the space between the vocal folds) and it's a stop because it interrupts the air flow coming from the lungs. So 'stop' in this context is used to describe a specific subtype of consonants, which also includes 'p', 't' and 'k' among others. It just happens that musicians borrowed this expression from phonetics.
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Re: Does anyone know why glottal and not T?

Post by david_h »

gwuilleann wrote: Sun Apr 18, 2021 2:59 am...it's a stop because it interrupts the air flow coming from the lungs. ... It just happens that musicians borrowed this expression from phonetics.
OK, so the Ts are also stops. The simple answer to question in the subject line is "because it sounds different". However, I think in most discussions of Irish music the thought is that it is "because the release sounds different". The difference between T, K and D (as used in flute playing) is mainly the release; the glottal stop is different again.

My point was that, as in the pronunciation of 'button', both the stop and that start contribute to making an accent distinctive. For a musical accent my feel is that with the glottal stop it is easier to produce something like the effect of a change in bellows direction on a free-reed box in ending one note and starting the next.
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Re: Does anyone know why glottal and not T?

Post by Flutern »

david_h wrote: Sun Apr 18, 2021 4:07 am OK, so the Ts are also stops. The simple answer to question in the subject line is "because it sounds different". However, I think in most discussions of Irish music the thought is that it is "because the release sounds different". The difference between T, K and D (as used in flute playing) is mainly the release; the glottal stop is different again.
Yes, perceptually glottal stops are the weakest kind of stops: their burst is typically very short and has a low intensity. I suppose that's why they are considered well suited for Irish music: they can mark the attack of a note without disrupting the flow of a phrase much.
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