Keyed Flute-Pipers Grip

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Madpiper13
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Keyed Flute-Pipers Grip

Post by Madpiper13 »

Having never had a chance to play a keyed flute; is it possible to re-fit appropriate keys to fit someone with pipers grip, or do some keys then require the blocks be in different positions?
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Re: Keyed Flute-Pipers Grip

Post by Nanohedron »

Madpiper13 wrote: Fri Apr 09, 2021 5:54 pm Having never had a chance to play a keyed flute; is it possible to re-fit appropriate keys to fit someone with pipers grip, or do some keys then require the blocks be in different positions?
Piper's-grip player here. In my experience the standard blocks and keys on any flute never posed any logistical problems (with one sure exception to be named), but this will perhaps, in some cases, depend on the shape of key touches. The sure exception: a standard Bb key touch is pretty much unusable to the piper's grip. If you are planning on getting a new flute made, I would strongly recommend that the Bb key have a double touch. If you're looking for used, definitely keep an eye out for a double Bb touch. They're not common, but they're out there.
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Re: Keyed Flute-Pipers Grip

Post by Loren »

I can’t play standard keyed flutes ever since I had to switch to the piper’s grip due to wrist issues: The blocks are in the way and I need to rotate the left and right hand sections significantly out of line which causes all sorts of key touch issues, even if I could seal the holes, which the blocks prevent. And there’s always the Bb issue nano mentioned.

Obviously some people who play piper's grip can mostly make a standard keyed flute work, for those can’t, ordering a custom made flute is one option. The other option is to have post mounted keys added to a keyless flute. Maurice Reviol is a good option when going this route.
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Re: Keyed Flute-Pipers Grip

Post by Narzog »

On the note of flute pipers grip, is there any good videos on how to pipers grip like hold a irish flute? Or am I misreading and you guys hold the irish flute in the standard fashion (left hand specifically). I really hate the standard way. Maybe I'm doing it wrong. But Having my fingers bent after the first finger joint just feels so much less responsive than pipers grip where I can move my entire finger to do taps and stuff quickly. so my left hand ornaments come out significantly worse. I've tried bansuri style holding which works better but doesnt hold it as stability for playing fast.
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Re: Keyed Flute-Pipers Grip

Post by Narzog »

To whoever replied to me but deleted it because it bugged out and said it was posted by me quoting my post that disappeared, thanks for the video. I'll try playing like that and see how it feels. With a little adjustment it will most likely feel better.
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Re: Keyed Flute-Pipers Grip

Post by Nanohedron »

Narzog wrote: Sat Apr 10, 2021 6:45 pm On the note of flute pipers grip, is there any good videos on how to pipers grip like hold a irish flute?
Here's one: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9gvFNEVM_Dk

Narzog wrote:Or am I misreading and you guys hold the irish flute in the standard fashion (left hand specifically). I really hate the standard way. Maybe I'm doing it wrong. But Having my fingers bent after the first finger joint just feels so much less responsive than pipers grip where I can move my entire finger to do taps and stuff quickly. so my left hand ornaments come out significantly worse. I've tried bansuri style holding which works better but doesnt hold it as stability for playing fast.
You find all sorts of grip variants, some of them even mixed. Larry (the fellow in the vid's foreground) shows very clearly a grip that falls squarely within piper's grip parameters. Take note of his right (upper) thumb: it extends back toward the head, and beneath enough to afford both support, and pressure against the face. With piper's grip this is a common solution to the problem of stability.
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Re: Keyed Flute-Pipers Grip

Post by Nanohedron »

Narzog wrote: Sat Apr 10, 2021 7:49 pm To whoever replied to me but deleted it because it bugged out and said it was posted by me quoting my post that disappeared, thanks for the video. I'll try playing like that and see how it feels. With a little adjustment it will most likely feel better.
Uh - actually, that was me. I totally screwed up and edited your post to blazes, thinking I was working on a quote instead. I was hoping to get it fixed before you noticed, but that's what I get. Imagine me chuckling ruefully. :oops:

I picked a different video of the same player, too.
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Re: Keyed Flute-Pipers Grip

Post by Narzog »

Nanohedron wrote: Sat Apr 10, 2021 7:54 pm Uh - actually, that was me. I totally screwed up and edited your post to blazes, thinking I was working on a quote instead. I was hoping to get it fixed before you noticed, but that's what I get. Imagine me chuckling ruefully. :oops:

I picked a different video of the same player, too.
Haha no worries, that's much better, and more amusing, than the forum having some strange bug. I feel your pain, I constantly try to edit or delete posts and messages to friends and they always see it before I do.
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Re: Keyed Flute-Pipers Grip

Post by BKWeid »

Madpiper13, check out Michael McGoldrick’s YouTube videos. He pulls it off seemingly without a problem.
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Re: Keyed Flute-Pipers Grip

Post by Sedi »

Tom Doorley also comes to mind. I saw him playing a keyed Olwell with piper's grip in the documentary "The Keymasters" -- highly recommended btw and can be watched on Vimeo. Couldn't find a video of him playing it on youtube however.
Look on Vimeo for "Tom Doorley -- flute player".
However, he only uses piper's grip for the left hand.
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Re: Keyed Flute-Pipers Grip

Post by Loren »

BKWeid wrote: Sat Apr 10, 2021 10:01 pm Madpiper13, check out Michael McGoldrick’s YouTube videos. He pulls it off seemingly without a problem.
While he’s a fine player, McGoldrick is probably not someone you want to copy with regards to how he “holds” the flute: He rests the flute on his shoulder, forcing both his shoulder and neck into bad positions, which is just asking for neck, back and shoulder problems.

In a lot of videos you maybe can’t see how extreme his positioning is, but this video has some very good angles and close-ups, and the tunes aren’t bad either :wink: https://youtu.be/piqsTFRksfI

McGoldrick and some others use this shoulder rest position to overcome the inherent instability of the pipers grip on flute, and it definitely works for that purpose, but again, there’s likely to be some significant physical repercussions down the line....
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Re: Keyed Flute-Pipers Grip

Post by tstermitz »

Thanks for the Doorley video. I didn't quite believe that piper's grip would work on the left hand, until I observed it!

Curiously, his right hand fingers are not as flat as his left hand - would you call that a partial or almost piper's grip? I mean, I know people (even with small fingers on a huge flute) who play with the tips of their fingers. When I re-configured my hold along the recommendations of the Rockstro hold, my left hand fingers are arced, while the right hand fingers semi-flat (on the pads of the fingers) like Doorley's.

I agree that straighter fingers articulating from the "hand knuckles" is easier/faster, while lifting (e.g. the left fingers) from the finger knuckles is more awkward. I notice that even if the base of my left index finger is against the flute, I actually can articulate that finger from the hand knuckle. That is not my habit however, and I also notice that my B and A rolls have been the slowest to gain agility.

Vimeo is so much more pleasant to watch than Youtube. Damn the YT advertisements! (Not to mention the YT soul-sucking algorithm that steers you ever deeper into extremist videos.
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Re: Keyed Flute-Pipers Grip

Post by tstermitz »

And notice in the video from the same series, that Harry McGowan has the "normal" left hand, but uses very flat fingers on the right - clearly a right-hand piper's grip.

I also notice that he hinges the left index finger at the joint where the finger meets the hand.
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Re: Keyed Flute-Pipers Grip

Post by Sedi »

tstermitz wrote: Sun Apr 11, 2021 10:40 am Thanks for the Doorley video. I didn't quite believe that piper's grip would work on the left hand, until I observed it!
When I use piper's grip (but I mostly switched to Rockstro's) -- I do it like that, too. Right hand (I'm right-handed) normal, left hand piper's grip. Makes the ornaments easier and faster with the left hand for me. Also more comfortable for the wrist. But not as comfy for the thumb(s). With piper's grip, my thumbs are below the flute and carry the weight, with Rockstro's they are behind the flute and the left thumb carries no weight at all. Both flute-support-systems have their advantages and disadvantages.
I always marvel at Matt Molloy -- his left wrist is almost straight even with Rockstro's. Very efficient fingering -- and it seems so effortless. Just amazing.
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Re: Keyed Flute-Pipers Grip

Post by BKWeid »

Ah Loren, good point. While the keyed flute can be addressed with a piper’s grip, the resulting shoulder rest and neck crane don’t seem to be healthy ergonomics. Some aging players on this forum have mentioned moving to lighter and thinner flutes— probably evident of ergonomic issues playing the flute presents in general.
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