Eight-key flute: playing low C# and C

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srampino
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Tell us something.: Playing flute since October 2019. Flutes: practice flute by Hammy Hamilton, R&R-based Delrin keyless by Vincenzo di Mauro, Pratten-based Delrin keyless by Rob Forbes, R&R 6-key polymer M&E, R&R-based 8-key Delrin by Vincenzo di Mauro, R&R 6-key African blackwood by Steffen Gabriel. Based in Pisa, Italy.

Eight-key flute: playing low C# and C

Post by srampino »

Hi all, as I mentioned in a related discussion on thesession.org (https://thesession.org/discussions/45947) I recently received an eight-key Delrin flute by Galway-based maker Vincenzo di Mauro which I find awesome. My experience is limited, but I am super happy with the flute: beautiful, a joy to play, quite responsive, comfortable, and with spot-on intonation. I will post some pictures and maybe some clips here on C&F at some time.

Now, I used to play a six-key M&E flute before so I was already familiar with six out of the eight keys. However, as I should have expected, playing the two new notes on the new flute (low C# and C through the related keys) was not straightforward at all. On my first attempt, I could not produce any sound at all. After half-an-hour or so I could get a weak C#, the day after a weak C. Now, a week after, I can get a decent C# and a sustained but weak C. I am pretty sure the keys and pads are doing their job properly, so I believe it's a matter of developing the related technique. I searched for advice on my (four!) flute books (Hamilton, Ó Gráda, Larsen, Vallely), here on C&F, on Youtube and on the web, and could find very little on this topic (here are two related C&F threads: http://staging.forums.chiffandfipple.co ... p?t=103449 and http://staging.forums.chiffandfipple.co ... hp?t=57343).

That's why I would like to open a discussion here. As I wrote in the above mentioned discussion, the trickiest aspects seems to me to 1) balance the pressure of the right pinkie on the key touch with that of the other right-hand fingers (and their position on the holes) 2) to correct the embouchure for the low notes. To these I would add: 3) improve breath control for those notes.

I am pretty confident that this will come with time (after all this has happened for so many other aspects of flute playing!), however any advice on how to get clear and consistent C# and C notes would be very welcome.

Thanks - Sergio.
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Re: Eight-key flute: playing low C# and C

Post by NicoMoreno »

I think you've already nailed the key things you need to keep in mind and work on, but a couple thoughts:
- To verify that everything is sealing well, you can do the suck and blow test: take off the foot joint, plug one end and hold the low C keys down, and suck or blow through the other end. You should get a really good seal if everything is good. I have a great John Gallagher 8-key D flute with "pewter" plug foot keys (not actual pewter, but same design) and they work great, but I did have issues with sealing them at first due to the plugs rotating slightly. The suck test was very helpful in adjusting everything to my satisfaction. I use machine oil on these plugs occasionally as well, as that helps. It's worth ensuring that all joints are well sealed, and especially when the flute is put together - even a tiny leak will really heavily impact the low C note especially.
- I have extremely short (and curved) pinkies, so the footjoint has to be rotated very particularly for me to be able to use the keys well. And I have to be very careful not to leak my ring finger when doing that.

In the end, it's just about practicing what you listed though!
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Re: Eight-key flute: playing low C# and C

Post by Jayhawk »

Finger leak, as nailed by Nico, is the most common culprit. Being part of the short fingered club, it's an issue for me. C# is usually dead on, but I do struggle a bit with the Cnat, which causes me to use more for a RH Piper's grip for the low C and C# and that causes me to not deal the RH finger holes as well. Practice is key! Pun intended because I can't help myself. :D

Eric
srampino
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Re: Eight-key flute: playing low C# and C

Post by srampino »

Thanks for the comments. After these weeks of C&F blackout, my low C# and low C actually improved quite a lot. A fourth point I would add to the three I mentioned above is 4) make sure the flute stays in position with respect to your embouchure when pressing the keys.
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Re: Eight-key flute: playing low C# and C

Post by BKWeid »

AH! I too have this same question and am keenly watching this thread. New to keyed flutes, I've struggled to get a solid low C# and barely sound the low C on a beautifully restored 8 key antique. I've verified the flute seals well--it is me. The flute otherwise performs well for me in three octaves with a very nice strong tone. I've tried altering my attack on embouchure and varying air stream velocity. Since the C# is improving, I think I'm making progress. Nevertheless, I'm looking for similar advice.
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Re: Eight-key flute: playing low C# and C

Post by NicoMoreno »

I have a very nice antique D'Almaine flute that was restored *except* for the foot joint, and it's a funny thing because if I test the foot joint by pressing down at the plugs, it seals super well, but if I try to play it by pressing the keys, it doesn't work at all. The keys are just not aligned correctly, so there's always a bit of a leak. (Actually, I did fix it using paper as shims, so at some point I'll be able to properly fix it). Anyway, the point is to try to make sure those notes really are sealing well before ruling it out. If they're not, try a bit of sewing machine oil on the plugs (if they're pewter, as with many antiques).

Also make sure there are *no* leaks elsewhere. I have a Wylde that has a sad history, as evidenced by the three cracks in the barrel, and when one of them started to reopen, the bottom end completely went away. It's worth checking each joint, but also checking the head and top joint together to make sure a crack doesn't open only when assembled (as happened with the Wylde and as I saw happen to another friend's flute).

One other issue is that you might be bumping the Eb key when playing C#/C. Or just leaking your fingers.
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Re: Eight-key flute: playing low C# and C

Post by tstermitz »

I think there are any number of possible leaks, some not mentioned yet, like loose pins in the key lever-arm that cause mis-alignment of the pad.

If things aren't working, you really need to ask an experienced flute player to evaluate the flute itself. If your approach isn't working, you really need to get in-person evaluation of your technique. Or, maybe it is just one of gaining sufficient experience.

My experiences with pewter feet have included flutes with zero problems, flutes which wouldn't play low C at all, and flutes with weak or fluffy low C's.

Aside from leaks and flaws in the flute, I believe that bore shape or flute design may simply produce flutes that require a different approach or different embouchure technique to get a good low C.

I accept that because with time and effort, my fluffy low-C flute started to improve despite the fact that it had a strong low D. Eventually it improved tremendously, and I can see more potential down the road.
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Re: Eight-key flute: playing low C# and C

Post by busterbill »

In pre-covid days I'd have suggested having an eight keyed player play your flute. If they can get a strong C and C# you're good to go. The mechanisms are somewhat fragile sometimes and a mild knock or putting too much twisting pressure on the keys if you take that foot off and on can cause issues. I've 3 8 keyed flutes that function quite well. But the most modern did seem to be the most fragile and did end up needing repair.

I had that flute in a new Northwind case that required the separation of all sections. My other 8 keyed flutes live in Northwind cases inspired by the original Rudall Rose cases where the bottom half of the flute body and the foot joint stay together all the time. I do believe that I ended up twisting something ever so slightly. I switched to an old beat up English flute case that fit the flute nicely and haven't had an issue since.


This may not be your experience at all. But it is something to watch for.
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Re: Eight-key flute: playing low C# and C

Post by Nanohedron »

Jayhawk wrote: Thu Mar 25, 2021 10:37 amC# is usually dead on, but I do struggle a bit with the Cnat ...
This was my experience, too. In my case I discovered that my embouchure was the culprit: too effortful. Once I learned to relax my embouchure, that's when the low Cnat could sing. So I'm grateful for getting those keys, because they helped my embouchure evolve.
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