Second octave d is reluctant to speak

[cac]

Three of my flutes have what I would describe as a recalcitrant second octave d. When coming up from the first octave, the d is very reluctant to speak and requires increased breath pressure or a strong articulation of some sort. The other flutes I have don't have this problem at all. Has anyone else encountered the problem and hopefully worked out a solution? Thanks, Chet

[Sedi]

Most flutes and whistles have a nicer 2nd octave D when it is vented. If you're not already doing it, try playing it: oxx xxx.

[Julia Delaney]

That is how I was taught to play it -- venting the top hole -- and how I do play it.
I assume that it is a keyless flute and that a leak somewhere is not an issue.

[cac]

I always remove the LH first finger for the second octave D, and yes, the flutes in question are all keyless. 2 Pratten types and 1 Rudall-Rose type.

[fatmac]

Perhaps it was tuned not to use an open top hole - I have a couple of flutes & whistles that are better with all holes closed, remembering which is which can be fun.

[NicoMoreno]

I have a B flute that doesn't like to play the middle D vented as easily (it takes a bit more focus and air to get it right, just as you describe), when the slide is pulled out too far. I have it tuned to match my flat set of pipes, which are quite a bit flat of B, so the flute is right at the edge of this range at the moment. I've found that adjusting the cork to match helps, if I need the flute even flatter. So maybe you need to adjust your cork and/or the tuning slide?

FWIW, I have an antique Wylde flute that does the opposite - you can play the middle Eb vented (no other flute speaks as easily with that note).

[cac]

I posted the same question on thesession, and Richard Cook replied that the likely culprit was an enlarged L1 hole. Done so to raise the pitch of the C# note but affecting the ease of sounding of the d note when vented. That seems to be the answer for my three flutes which have the problem. And probably explains why Nico Moreno's Wylde flute doesn't have the problem. (The C natural key is available for venting when playing the c#, so the hole can be left a bit smaller.)

[Loren]

Please name the three flutes giving you problems, might be enlightening to see if other owners perceive there to be a problem with those flutes.

Do you blow at the same angle across the embouchure for both octaves? Do you roll?

[Terry McGee]

I posted the same question on thesession, and Richard Cook replied that the likely culprit was an enlarged L1 hole. Done so to raise the pitch of the C# note but affecting the ease of sounding of the d note when vented. That seems to be the answer for my three flutes which have the problem. And probably explains why Nico Moreno's Wylde flute doesn't have the problem. (The C natural key is available for venting when playing the c#, so the hole can be left a bit smaller.)

Richard's probably right. The top hole is inevitably a compromise because it is used in so many notes. Try "half-holing" the top hole when playing middle D (like recorder players do with the back hole to get the second octave). IE: DXX XXX. Does that help?

[rama]

might want to check the position of the cork

[cac]

Some new comments have come in, and this reply is to them:
(1) of the 3 flutes which have the problem, one is a Pratten-type made by Richard Cox, one is by Garry Somers with his older style embouchure hole (the one with a lot of overcutting on both sides), and the other has a custom-made (at my request) embouchure hole and since the default embouchure hole didn't have the problem I'm reluctant to name the make. However, because the stock embouchure hole doesn't have the problem, it seems likely to me that there is more to the problem than just the size of the C# hole.
(2) re half-holing the C# hole: it is possible that this helped, but it is almost impossible for me to half-hole this hole at the same as closing all the other holes, so I'm not sure.
(3) the cork is positioned correctly by both the octave and the harmonic tests.
Thanks for these additional suggestions. Chet

[Loren]

Some new comments have come in, and this reply is to them:
(1) of the 3 flutes which have the problem, one is a Pratten-type made by Richard Cox, one is by Garry Somers with his older style embouchure hole (the one with a lot of overcutting on both sides), and the other has a custom-made (at my request) embouchure hole and since the default embouchure hole didn't have the problem I'm reluctant to name the make. However, because the stock embouchure hole doesn't have the problem, it seems likely to me that there is more to the problem than just the size of the C# hole.

Chet

Chet, based on what you’ve written it sounds to me like the issue is how you go about achieving second octave D (and above): If you are not doing so already, try shifting the airstream slightly more up/across the far edge of the embouchure hole for second octave D and above. You can accomplish this by moving your lower jaw forward just a touch, think of pushing your chin forward, away from you just a tad while continuing to maintain the same airstream force and embouchure shape.

The lips can also be pursed out a little bit instead of moving the jaw, but this is probably tougher to do with consistently at first. I find pursing out required to play the third octave.

Some people roll the flute a little, but I don’t do that so can’t offer advice on that method.

Also, where you initially set your bottom lip on the flute relative to the embouchure hole can have a significant affect on how easy/difficult the second octave is to achieve.

And then there is the interplay of the embouchure cut with the above factors: For example what works well for me on most flutes I have owned will not work on most of the Sam Murray or Gary Somers flutes I have played - I need to set the flute in a different position on my lower lip and also blow at slightly different angles to play in tune on those flutes, because the embouchure cut is more shallow, or steep, depending on how you define it.

I’m curious, can you play xxx xxx in all 3 octaves quietly, moving from one to the other, on any of your flutes?

[cac]

Loren- thanks for your additional reply and I apologize that I forgot to reply to that part of your query. I've played the flute since the late 60s (baroque and silver until about 6 years ago when I started with wooden flutes). I play the second octave exactly the ways you describe it as being done (changing the air stream direction slightly, pushing the chin/jaw forward and pursing the lips) although I sometimes also give a nudge from the 'diaphragm' as well (my silver flute teacher was a pupil of Aurele Nicolet and taught me this). I have no trouble playing three octaves piano on a silver flute and on playing up to 3rd octave A on most wooden flutes. I have no problem playing second octave notes, except for the d on the three flutes, on any of my flutes, and with my two Olwells and a mid 19th c. small-holed Wm Hall and Son flute I have no problem with the 2nd octave d. I've also tried different lip positions. This is something I'm very aware of as the baroque flute requires a different placement of the lower lip on the embouchure hole edge. Chet

[Loren]

Loren- thanks for your additional reply and I apologize that I forgot to reply to that part of your query. I've played the flute since the late 60s (baroque and silver until about 6 years ago when I started with wooden flutes). I play the second octave exactly the ways you describe it as being done (changing the air stream direction slightly, pushing the chin/jaw forward and pursing the lips) although I sometimes also give a nudge from the 'diaphragm' as well (my silver flute teacher was a pupil of Aurele Nicolet and taught me this). I have no trouble playing three octaves piano on a silver flute and on playing up to 3rd octave A on most wooden flutes. I have no problem playing second octave notes, except for the d on the three flutes, on any of my flutes, and with my two Olwells and a mid 19th c. small-holed Wm Hall and Son flute I have no problem with the 2nd octave d. I've also tried different lip positions. This is something I'm very aware of as the baroque flute requires a different placement of the lower lip on the embouchure hole edge. Chet

Chet, ah, well we’ve pretty much covered that then

Since you are experiencing this on multiple flutes, I think we can probably rule out leaks, which would be the only other thing I can think of. I say probably, but of course coming from a maker repairer background I’d be inclined to check the HJ stopper, slide, all joints, and pads if there are any.

That said, I’ll just add the following: I still have a suspicion it’s partly an embouchure and blowing angles thing because I’ve seen this sort of thing before even with experienced players coming from different style flutes. As an example: My stepfather is a professional musician and one day a very experienced flute playing friend of his came by when I was visiting. This gentleman had played at the whitehouse on multiple occasions so I’m assuming he didn’t suck. He saw my Cocus Olwell and asked about it. I told him to give it a whirl. Well, we were both rather surprised when he found it a real challenge to play

Wish I could be of more help, but I’m out of practical ideas other than to suggest playing d2 xxx xxx rather than oxx xxx on the offending flutes. I do have a sneaking suspicion though that over time the problem may “go away” on one or more of the flutes. That said, I had a Somers flute and a fantastic Murray that I sold because my main wood flute is an Olwell and I found of all the flutes I owned, the Somers and Murray were just too different from the Olwell and other flutes I own, to the point that time spent playing the Murray and Somers negatively impacted my playing on everything else. I consider that a failing on my part, but there you have it.

Anyway, best of luck, and sorry to have been absolutely no help whatsoever I gave it a shot

[cac]

Thanks again, Loren. Don't say you were no help. I've been experimenting with different blowing angles more seriously than perhaps I was in the past, and the results, today at least, are encouraging. Although none of these flutes has a sound quality which matches that (I should write 'those') of my Olwell Nicholson, each has a unique quality of its own which I enjoy from time to time. One of the wonders of wooden flutes.