Beginner question about length of phrase/how muchair

[Flutern]

Passive during exhalation?? No, the diaphragm relaxes and moves up, forcing the air out of your lungs during exhalation.

Hey, I asked for it, didn't I? What I meant by "passive" was exactly that: it relaxes. I'm not a native speaker of English, but this use of "passive" is not unheard of. Let me quote:

Expiration is typically a passive process that happens from the relaxation of the diaphragm muscle (that contracted during inspiration).

Source: https://courses.lumenlearning.com/bound ... breathing/

[Loren]

Passive during exhalation?? No, the diaphragm relaxes and moves up, forcing the air out of your lungs during exhalation.

Hey, I asked for it, didn't I? What I meant by "passive" was exactly that: it relaxes. I'm not a native speaker of English, but this use of "passive" is not unheard of. Let me quote:

Expiration is typically a passive process that happens from the relaxation of the diaphragm muscle (that contracted during inspiration).

Source: https://courses.lumenlearning.com/bound ... breathing/

Considering I only speak one language, I’m not going to give you too hard a time about it

[Flotineer]

That exercise may be just the sort of thing I need. Thanks, Loren!

[Loren]

That exercise may be just the sort of thing I need. Thanks, Loren!

Happy to help

The obvious next step in the progression is to do the breathing exercise with the flute, playing long tones and working on your embouchure to improve tone, efficiency, volume, projection, dynamics, etc.

And of course, tunes!

The issue of where to breathe within a tune is more about of musicality - phrasing and how you want to sound. I’d say listening to various players you like, playing tunes you want to play on the flute. Take note of where they take breaths, how often, and how that affects the overall feel. Take breaths at different intervals during a tune, or your playing starts to sound a bit....mechanical. There are lots of options once you have an efficient embouchure and you’ve ingrained getting quick full breaths so you aren’t constantly worried about surviving to the end of the current phrase.

[Conical bore]

For the OP's benefit and on the question of whether a high degree of physical fitness is required to play flute: Myself and Seamus Tansey have nothing in common regarding the quality of flute playing, but we're both clear evidence of how far out of shape you can be and still get through a set of tunes.

[jim stone]

Just to be clear, nobody has said that aerobic fitness is required for playing flute. Obviously there are people less fit than me who play much better than I do. The claim is only that it can be helpful, including for beginners. A vigorous occasional workout of the respiratory system, as in walking, swimming, jogging, bicycling increases strength, capacity and control (improves the wind, as it were) and thereby can help meet the breath demands of playing a wind instrument. Voice teachers I've known have instructed their students to swim laps for this reason. Also my voice teachers have given me abdominal exercises on the ground that it increases control, their idea being that multiple muscles are involved in breathing/blowing, including muscles in the lower back. I don't claim to KNOW this is true, and it does seem to work and I suggest it can be of significant help to newbies dealing with the OP's question. And of course what have you to lose?

[david_h]

When I started out I could barely get through four bars and could not hold a note for more than about seven seconds. I’d get dizzy.

Same here. Dizzy. But is that lack of fitness? Or hyperventilation ? And if it's hyperventilation - breathing more than you body needs and flushing out too much CO2 - is being physically fit going to help all that much?

FWIW I think practising yogic breathing (only once a week - I'm a lousy student between classes) helped my ability to take a full breath without it being a big deal. Strenuous exercise it is not.

[cac]

Thanks, Loren, for writing with such clarity. I've played the flute since the late 60s and played the recorder before that but have never read a clearer exposition of the breathing process as it occurs in flute-playing. I forgot to mention one other thing, which doesn't have to do with the diaphragm muscle as far as I know but rather with the muscles on the surface of the stomach. I'm not sure what they are called. When I started to play the flute I took a couple of lessons with an opera singer for advice on breathing. I no longer remember what she taught me except for long notes, but I remember that she had me touch her stomach and what I felt was steel. Those muscles were very strong. I would think that this aided breath control, not breathing.

[PB+J]

I play better standing up. I assume I get the whole mechanism better aligned that way: also my attention is focused differently.

At some point early on I came across an article on wind players and aerobic fitness, and the article--sorry I can't find it--said that professional horn and woodwind players are no different from the general population in terms of aerobic fitness. It was all technique, not a substantial difference in athletic fitness.

I remember being surprised by this and thinking "that can't be true" because at the time all my struggles were with not being able to play long enough to complete a phrase. But it's true that professional singers and musicians, people who perform at an extremely high level, come in all shapes and sizes.

[david_h]

Is it possible to exhale a decent volume of air at significantly above atmospheric pressure - blowing up a party balloon, playing an oboe, bagpipe etc - without using abdominal muscles?

[Conical bore]

At some point early on I came across an article on wind players and aerobic fitness, and the article--sorry I can't find it--said that professional horn and woodwind players are no different from the general population in terms of aerobic fitness. It was all technique, not a substantial difference in athletic fitness.

I remember being surprised by this and thinking "that can't be true" because at the time all my struggles were with not being able to play long enough to complete a phrase. But it's true that professional singers and musicians, people who perform at an extremely high level, come in all shapes and sizes.

This is strictly anecdotal, but in my personal experience of learning to play flute starting 6 years ago from scratch, I've gone through all these stages:

* Initial dizziness after just a few minutes of playing.
* Dizziness gone, but can't seem to get enough air to make it all the way through 3 play-throughs of a tune.
* Can make it through 3 play-throughs, but have trouble with a set of three tunes.
* Current status: No trouble playing full sets of tunes, but I'm still working on finding the right places to breathe that enhance the tune, rather than detract from it.

During all this time I haven't changed my normal sedentary lifestyle at all. The only exercise I get at the age of 67 is walking up and down the stairs in my house and occasional walks; short hikes through the local woods. Noting really aerobic. I've just been working on embouchure and technique. Maybe some of this could have come along faster with aerobic workouts, but it seems to me that most if not all of this progress is due to embouchure development. I'm now wasting less air with a more focused airstream.

One of the flute tutors I bought, not sure if it was the one from Conal O'Grada or Fintan Vallelly, mentioned that playing the flute shouldn't require more air than normal conversation. We don't do special exercises in order to speak at a conversational level of volume. I think what mostly frustrates beginners is how long it takes to get your embouchure in decent shape.

[rama]

Is it possible to exhale a decent volume of air at significantly above atmospheric pressure - blowing up a party balloon, playing an oboe, bagpipe etc - without using abdominal muscles?

https://courses.lumenlearning.com/bound ... breathing/

[david_h]

Is it possible to exhale a decent volume of air at significantly above atmospheric pressure - blowing up a party balloon, playing an oboe, bagpipe etc - without using abdominal muscles?

https://courses.lumenlearning.com/bound ... breathing/

I think the physics in that article is a little dodgy. Anything that uses the phrase 'partial vacuum' raises my suspicions so I would be cautious of using it as a source for something haven't studied such as anatomy. I bear Loren's cautions about such articles in mind.

However, what I was fishing for was something along the lines of

During forced exhalation, internal intercostal muscles which lower the rib cage and decrease thoracic volume while the abdominal muscles push up on the diaphragm which causes the thoracic cavity to contract. <big snip> Voluntary expiration ... ...is required for voice production during speech or singing, which requires very specific control over air, or even simpler activities, like blowing out a candle on one’s birthday. .

I think this is the business of 'breath support' for playing a flute using abdominal muscles. Exhalation just by relaxing the diaphragm is not particularly controllable and is what we do mainly during physical exertion. I find 'voice production' during such exertion unhelpful. YMMV.

[rama]

I think the physics in that article is a little dodgy. Anything that uses the phrase 'partial vacuum' raises my suspicions so I would be cautious of using it as a source for something haven't studied such as anatomy. I bear Loren's cautions about such articles in mind.
......

The article is good by me, as it pretty much reminds me of what I was taught in college.
I may have missed the phrase "partial vacuum" in the article - did you mean "partial pressure of gases"?
I thought "forced exhalation" would be of interest to you. I should have just directed you to that part exclusively.

Edit: upon review, I did find the phrase in this snippet here:

"The negative pressure in the pleural cavity is enough to hold the lungs open in spite of the inherent elasticity of the tissue. The thoracic cavity increases in volume causing a drop in the pressure (a partial vacuum) within the lung itself."

Curious, why is this considered dodgy?

[david_h]

I should have just directed you to that part exclusively.

gwuilleann had already linked the full article up thread. And no way am I going to not going to read a whole article - how else to make an assessment of how good it is? I looked elsewhere for a couple of things that seemed odd. I'd bet a small amount that Wikipedia's description of the roll of the pleural cavity (involving surface tension) is closer to the mark.

However, the article does highlight the many muscles that can influence the volume of the thoracic cavity and so cause air to move into and out of the lungs. Most of that becomes apparent if taught 'yogic breathing' by someone who knows their anatomy.

Grey Larsen writes about breathing for flute playing. I don't have it to hand but as I recall it he recommends abdominal breathing with the chest expanded but the extra air that can be exhaled with the intercostal muscles being a 'final reserve' not normally drawn on.

edit in response to your edit - explain 'partial vacuum'. And that bit about negative pressure (and more higher up) was what sent me to Wikipedia. I wondered what gas was in there to have a negative pressure.