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 Post subject: Re: Women fluters
PostPosted: Tue Feb 09, 2021 4:57 am 
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I wonder if this is true, or if that's just what people "hear" because it's what they expect women will play like. If you took a bunch of flutists and had them play in a dark room for blindfolded listeners, would the listeners still agree that the women play differently? If you then told them that a male player was female and vice versa, would they still say that the player they thought was female played "gentler" than the one they thought was male? Katherine


Yes I think a blindfold test would be revealing as regards gender stereotyping . Female flute players can play with a strident, strong powerful tone, it's not a male preserve. Listen to Órlaith McAuliffe, Dee Tasker, Louise Mulcahy, Emer Mayock, Steph Geremia to name just five. Conal O'Grada or Harry Bradley's "punchy" style of flute playing is not the default sound of male flute players is it?


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 Post subject: Re: Women fluters
PostPosted: Tue Feb 09, 2021 6:16 am 
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kenny wrote:

@Sedi : "Orlaith McAuliffe (just ordered a CD)" What CD would that be, please ?

It's called "Crossharbour" like the name of the band.
http://crossharbourmusic.com/shop/


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 Post subject: Re: Women fluters
PostPosted: Tue Feb 09, 2021 6:41 am 
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Katharine wrote:
\

I wonder if this is true, or if that's just what people "hear" because it's what they expect women will play like. If you took a bunch of flutists and had them play in a dark room for blindfolded listeners, would the listeners still agree that the women play differently? If you then told them that a male player was female and vice versa, would they still say that the player they thought was female played "gentler" than the one they thought was male?


This

It's interesting that in the present day US the flute is "coded" as a woman's instrument. In high school and college bands flute is "girly."

https://www.bsomusic.org/stories/boys-play-trumpet-and-girls-play-flute-but-why.aspx
https://www.fluteland.com/board/viewtopic.php?t=361


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 Post subject: Re: Women fluters
PostPosted: Tue Feb 09, 2021 7:32 am 
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Ms. Granville didn't seem to suggest that female fluters can't play like male fluters. She just suggested that they (or at least a measurable percentage of "they") don't. I was questioning whether that is others' perception. If that is true, getting into the why of the matter is probably a very much deeper issue.

Best wishes.

Steve

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Last edited by Steve Bliven on Tue Feb 09, 2021 7:34 am, edited 1 time in total.

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 Post subject: Re: Women fluters
PostPosted: Tue Feb 09, 2021 7:34 am 
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PB+J wrote:
It's interesting that in the present day US the flute is "coded" as a woman's instrument. In high school and college bands flute is "girly."

Yes, that's been true for a while now. No idea how it started, or why it seems to be different in the US than some other countries. Maybe it's the fact that fretted stringed instruments and horns were dominant in popular music, a field with few female instrumentalists until recently. The flute was mostly seen in "girly" Classical orchestras, almost never in pop music with a few exceptions like Ian Anderson with Jethro Tull. It's still not a very high profile instrument in the US outside of Classical music and marching bands.

Regarding the physical ability of women vs. men, I think it's notable that a few of the records in the freediving sport are held by women. Freediving is sort of the opposite of playing flute, where you hold your breath as long as possible instead of regular breathing in and out, but it does involve training for maximum lung capacity. Women don't seem to have any trouble competing in this sport.


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 Post subject: Re: Women fluters
PostPosted: Tue Feb 09, 2021 7:47 am 
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It's interesting that in the present day US the flute is "coded" as a woman's instrument. In high school and college bands flute is "girly." pb+j


Aye interesting, as in Ireland the flute is also a term for the penis. Perchance a phallic symbolism young Americans are unaware of. As Peter mentioned both the pipes and flute were not considered ladylike or "girly" instruments at all. I'd hesitate though in the midst of a session before calling Patsy Hanly, Harry Bradley or Conal O'Grada "girly" :)


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The flute was mostly seen in "girly" Classical orchestras, almost never in pop music with a few exceptions like Ian Anderson with Jethro Tull. It's still not a very high profile instrument in the US outside of Classical music and marching bands. Steve.


But there are many well known male jazz musicians who play the flute in the US such Eric Dolphy, Sam Rivers, Charles Lloyd, Joe Farrell, Herbie Mann, Yusef Lateef, Dave Valentin, Jerome Richardson, Roland Kirk, Frank Wess, Hubert Laws ...


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 Post subject: Re: Women fluters
PostPosted: Tue Feb 09, 2021 11:41 am 
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From Steampacket: "But there are many well known male jazz musicians who play the flute in the US such Eric Dolphy, Sam Rivers, Charles Lloyd, Joe Farrell, Herbie Mann, Yusef Lateef, Dave Valentin, Jerome Richardson, Roland Kirk, Frank Wess, Hubert Laws ..."

Perhaps not so well known: Ali Ryerson.


Last edited by jenfen on Tue Feb 09, 2021 12:52 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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 Post subject: Re: Women fluters
PostPosted: Tue Feb 09, 2021 11:50 am 
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Funny enough, I was inspired by a German TV series to learn the (boehm) flute which feautured a girl as lead character who played the flute. This whole "girly" thing with flutes might be the same in Germany but IMO only weak-minded characters are influenced by that. And only up to a certain age.


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 Post subject: Re: Women fluters
PostPosted: Tue Feb 09, 2021 1:25 pm 
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Steampacket wrote:

But there are many well known male jazz musicians who play the flute in the US such Eric Dolphy, Sam Rivers, Charles Lloyd, Joe Farrell, Herbie Mann, Yusef Lateef, Dave Valentin, Jerome Richardson, Roland Kirk, Frank Wess, Hubert Laws ...


Maybe well known to the hardcore jazz crowd, but certainly not to grade school kids and the vast majority of their parents at the time when kids are choosing, or being steered towards which instrument to play. Most kids here will never have even seen a jazz band prior to learning to play an instrument, and even if they did, it’s unlikely they’d see a jazz band with a flute player.


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 Post subject: Re: Women fluters
PostPosted: Tue Feb 09, 2021 4:42 pm 
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Maybe well known to the hardcore jazz crowd, but certainly not to grade school kids and the vast majority of their parents at the time when kids are choosing, or being steered towards which instrument to play. Most kids here will never have even seen a jazz band prior to learning to play an instrument, and even if they did, it’s unlikely they’d see a jazz band with a flute player. Loren


We're getting off track now. Who cares about American grade school kids and their parents, and their ignorance of an American art form. The original poster's query was regarding possible differences in the way female and male flute players play and sound in Irish traditional music and if gender was an issue or not.


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 Post subject: Re: Women fluters
PostPosted: Tue Feb 09, 2021 4:52 pm 
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Steampacket wrote:
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Maybe well known to the hardcore jazz crowd, but certainly not to grade school kids and the vast majority of their parents at the time when kids are choosing, or being steered towards which instrument to play. Most kids here will never have even seen a jazz band prior to learning to play an instrument, and even if they did, it’s unlikely they’d see a jazz band with a flute player. Loren


We're getting off track now. Who cares about American grade school kids and their parents, and their ignorance of an American art form. The original poster's query was regarding possible differences in the way female and male flute players play and sound in Irish traditional music and if gender was an issue or not.


You stated there were many well know male jazz flute players. In response I merely pointed out that jazz flute players, male or female, would not actually be well known to most kids or even their parents. Here and likely elsewhere.


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 Post subject: Re: Women fluters
PostPosted: Tue Feb 09, 2021 5:17 pm 
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You stated there were many well know male jazz flute players. In response I merely pointed out that jazz flute players, male or female, would not actually be well known to most kids or even their parents. Here and likely elsewhere.
Loren


Yes, I was responding to Steve's claim that "It's still not a very high profile instrument in the US outside of Classical music and marching bands".


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 Post subject: Re: Women fluters
PostPosted: Tue Feb 09, 2021 6:34 pm 
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Steampacket wrote:
I was responding to Steve's claim that "It's still not a very high profile instrument in the US outside of Classical music and marching bands".

Not my claim. Somebody else said that. I think Irish-style flute players are at the pinnacle of perceived musicianship in the US. :D

And I'd never equate "ladylike" and "girly"—at least in public...

Best wishes.

Steve

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 Post subject: Re: Women fluters
PostPosted: Tue Feb 09, 2021 7:47 pm 
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Steve Bliven wrote:
Ms. Granville didn't seem to suggest that female fluters can't play like male fluters. She just suggested that they (or at least a measurable percentage of "they") don't. I was questioning whether that is others' perception. If that is true, getting into the why of the matter is probably a very much deeper issue.

Best wishes.

Steve


Right, and so we're wondering if others' perception reflects realities, or just biases.

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 Post subject: Re: Women fluters
PostPosted: Wed Feb 10, 2021 4:15 am 
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Right, and so we're wondering if others' perception reflects realities, or just biases.
Katharine


Yes :thumbsup: Also if a person/musician plays Irish traditional music well on the flute, what does it matter if that person/musician is female or male? I don't think that male flute players are the default benchmark these days.

Steve wrote that Aoife seems to have said that some female flute players don't want to play/sound like male flute players. Perhaps this just indicates that they would rather chose a female flute player as a roll model instead of a male flute player?

There are so many female flute players who are great, inspiring musicians, so no shortage of roll models.


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