Chiff and Fipple Forums

I'm currently playing a Burns boxwood Folk Flute with ergonomic standard holes. I've also had/played a couple of Casey's blackwood flutes (one small hand version and one large hole) so I'm quite familiar with Casey's flutes. I sold the small hand a while back and will probably be selling the large hole soon (I can't play it as long as I can the standard model).

I'm wanting to get another blackwood, but with other attributes that are more similar to the current boxwood model that I play (flute hole spacing, breath requirements, etc). I expect that if I simply get another one of Casey's flutes in blackwood I'll be happy. But I think that I'm experiencing "grass is always greener" syndrome and am curious about David Copley's blackwood flutes.

I've done a bunch of searches and find a lot about David's Delrin flutes, and that in general all of his flutes are easy to play and excellent flutes for the money. What I haven't been able to find is any direct comments that others have experienced who have, or clearly remember, their experiences between David's flutes, and Casey's standard spaced flute (Folk or Standard).

Can anyone share knowledge of such things as air requirements between the two, hole spacing comparisons (even a side-by-side photo), flute barrel diameters, perceived volume, etc.? I can easily handle Casey's large hole flute with ergonomic spacing, so I'm not worried about Casey's, but I don't know about David's.

Also, I'm interested in any comments comparing Casey's Rudall model to his standard model with standard spacing.

Many thanks in advance.

Chris

I was recently corresponding with Dave Copley about a Delrin flute and I was also concerned about hole spacing and ergonomics. For the Delrin, at least (I'd imagine also for wood) he has an option to reduce the spacing between the L2-L3 and/or the R2-R3 holes (the middle-ring finger stretch on each hand), and also can offset holes according to your preference. He's very responsive to inquiries and he'll probably be happy to send you measurements for the hole spacings and offsets.

Dave Copley's your best bet for meaningful measurements & how he could tailor to your requirements. I could manage a side by side photo of a (boxwood) Burns Folk Flute & a Copley (full setup) blackwood, however I don't think mine has any ergonomic mods.

Thanks guys. Like you've both suggested, I have written to Dave and Marlene on the dimensional aspects. I was inquiring about some of those points to see what you may have.

What I'm most interested in are the differences (or likeness) of Casey's standard hole configuration versus Dave's hole configuration relative to breath requirements and subsequent volume. On my Burns Large Hole flute, I can easily play it, but I find that I start to run out of breath after a while; this doesn't happen with my Burns standard hole. This is not a slam against the larger hole flute at all; it is a very nice flute. I think it is more that: my embouchure is still developing, my lung capacity isn't what it used to be, I'm not a spring chicken anymore.

My assumption is that, on Casey's flutes for example, the hole position down the length of the barrel would be the same on his "standard hole" versus his "ergonomic standard hole", and that what changes is the position around the barrel of each respective hole. If someone had both a Burns standard hole and a Copley, I was simply interested in how they looked side-by-side.

And if anyone has played one of Casey's Rudalls and his Standards, I'd be interested in impressions of that as well.

Thanks again for the help and info.
Chris

According to Casey:

Fingerhole Spacings for his Standard & Small-handed Folk Flutes - measured center to center of hole.
1st & 2nd Std: 35mm Small: 32mm
2nd & 3rd Std: 33mm Small: 31mm
4th & 5th Std: 32mm Small: 31mm
5th & 6th Std: 32mm Small: 29mm

Fingerhole Spacings for his Large Hole Standard - measured center to center of hole.
The spacing of the Large Holed Standard is very close to the Standard. On the upper hand holes the spacing is 35mm and 34mm. On the lower hand the spacing is 33mm and 33mm. The holes are a little larger (.5mm to 1.5mm) due to their lower position on the flute body. This should be considered if one has very narrow fingers.

As to the effect of the ergonomic option:
"Ergonomic versus In-line Fingerholes explained: Most Irish flutes by other makers, antique flutes and many other wind instruments have finger holes that are all straight in-line. I have found that a slight bit of offset for the 2nd and 3rd holes for each hand helps tremendously by making the flute more comfortable to play. I call this arrangement "Ergonomic". With respect to the 1st fingerhole, the 2nd hole is rotated about 1mm or less away from the hand bringing the ring finger closer to the 3rd hole, which is offset 1-2mm towards the hand. The 5th and 6th fingerholes are increasingly offset by 1 and 2mm or more towards the hand with respect to the 4th hole. Essentially the fingerholes are arranged in slight arcs which correspond to the usual arrangement of fingertips."

kkrell wrote:I could manage a side by side photo of a (boxwood) Burns Folk Flute & a Copley (full setup) blackwood, however I don't think mine has any ergonomic mods.

Guess I was wrong. After I made my last post, I checked, & it IS an ergonomic model. The offset of the holes is actually very subtle. I generally prefer in-line holes. However, this is so small as to not be a problem for me, compared to other makers who offer offsets.

Thanks Kevin. I have those dimensions too, from Casey’s site and my own measurements (and my measurements are all pretty close to what’s listed).

I would be interested in seeing the two side by side, assuming that the Burns is ergonomic standard. (I think we have the same model (boxwood ergonomic standard FF).

Apart from the tone difference in boxwood versus blackwood, how are they relative to playing?

Unfortunately for me, I have a number of cysts in my left wrist. I can play with the holes aligned on top, but only for a minute or two before my wrist starts hurting. The small amount of offset helps tremendously for me.

Chris

Hi4head wrote:Thanks Kevin. I have those dimensions too, from Casey’s site and my own measurements (and my measurements are all pretty close to what’s listed).

I would be interested in seeing the two side by side, assuming that the Burns is ergonomic standard. (I think we have the same model (boxwood ergonomic standard FF).

Apart from the tone difference in boxwood versus blackwood, how are they relative to playing?

Unfortunately for me, I have a number of cysts in my left wrist. I can play with the holes aligned on top, but only for a minute or two before my wrist starts hurting. The small amount of offset helps tremendously for me.

Chris

From the measurements, mine appears to be ergonomic small hand (I bought it used). Can't you get the cysts taken care of medically?

They can be removed surgically, but I try to avoid surgery unless absolutely necessary. The largest cyst shrank on its own, so now there's just few little guys hanging around. Its crazy, the only time they bother me is playing the flute.

I have to laugh a little bit here. When I bought my first first folk flute (used), I thought that it was a standard ergonomic (which the previous owner thought that it was). On measuring it, I also discovered that it was a small hand model.

Chris

I had one of these, too. It went away.