It is currently Mon Apr 06, 2020 9:57 am

All times are UTC - 6 hours




Post new topic Reply to topic  [ 30 posts ]  Go to page Previous  1, 2
Author Message
 
 Post subject: Re: Synthetic Bore oils
PostPosted: Sat Mar 07, 2020 4:50 am 
Offline

Joined: Wed Dec 19, 2018 6:44 pm
Posts: 7
Location: Galicia, Spain
I oil the flutes monthly, more or less. I've used Alysin, Yamaha, flaxseed and almond oils.
As regards Alysin bore Oil, during the next two/three days I played after applying it my throat would get irritated. Being of use in musical instruments I suppose that it will not be toxic and it will depend on the tolerance of the organism of each one. But this has not happened to me with the other oils.
I stopped using the flaxseed oil because I did not like its viscosity. Currently, the one I am using most is almond oil, although I understand that a synthetic oil can be more stable and durable.
Greetings


Top
 Profile  
Reply with quote  
 
 Post subject: Re: Synthetic Bore oils
PostPosted: Sat Mar 07, 2020 9:32 pm 
Offline
User avatar

Joined: Sat Jan 29, 2005 4:22 am
Posts: 939
Location: San Pedro
Andro wrote:
Aha! Different page:

http://www.mcgee-flutes.com/newflute.html

He's not saying only Leblanc, just an example.

Anyway, the point is he is recommending the synthetics.

still i wrote windward flutes to try to get some description or reason why they advocate this , we will see what they say,, off the top of my head, the reason for the oils is a semi water barrier,, i guess trick the wood into thinking it still alive, but since its dead :D the trick still works (water barrier), maybe the synths dig deeper into the pours, low viscoscity , maybe lower than any pure oil (no microbiologicals)food for thought

_________________
Choose you this day, whom ye shall serve


Top
 Profile  
Reply with quote  
 
 Post subject: Re: Synthetic Bore oils
PostPosted: Sat Mar 07, 2020 9:36 pm 
Offline
User avatar

Joined: Sat Jan 29, 2005 4:22 am
Posts: 939
Location: San Pedro
dres wrote:
I oil the flutes monthly, more or less. I've used Alysin, Yamaha, flaxseed and almond oils.
As regards Alysin bore Oil, during the next two/three days I played after applying it my throat would get irritated. Being of use in musical instruments I suppose that it will not be toxic and it will depend on the tolerance of the organism of each one. But this has not happened to me with the other oils.
I stopped using the flaxseed oil because I did not like its viscosity. Currently, the one I am using most is almond oil, although I understand that a synthetic oil can be more stable and durable.
Greetings
well stable could simply mean shelf life, almond its pretty long, and if vitamin E is added, i think it lasts longer,, but degredation is still a player,, some thoughts are the wood is dead, soooo one is not trying to bring it back alive just keep it from cracking :D

_________________
Choose you this day, whom ye shall serve


Top
 Profile  
Reply with quote  
 
 Post subject: Re: Synthetic Bore oils
PostPosted: Sat Mar 07, 2020 10:03 pm 
Offline
User avatar

Joined: Sun Sep 13, 2009 10:06 pm
Posts: 1581
Location: just outside Xanadu
I find the primary action of oils on wood instruments is to slowdown both the uptake, and release of moisture. The wood is dead, true, but still retains the physical structure (scaffolding, if you will) of the wood cells. This consists primarily of cellulose, which is rather hydrophilic, and lignin, which can be thought of the ´glue´ that holds the cells to each other. The lignin is slightly less hydrophilic. Under a microscope you can readily see the growing and shrinking of the structure of the wood cells as moisture is added and removed. It is as though the wood is still ´alive´. Too much movement is what plays the devil on our instruments. The oil provides a partial vapor barrier to slow this movement down a bit.
For my own part, I prefer jojoba oil for instrument bores. It is technically not an oil, but a wax that remains more or less liquid at room temperatures. For this reason it isn´t much prone to degradation, and slower to evaporate, so I can go longer between applications.

YMMV
Bob

_________________
Not everything you can count, counts. And not everything that counts, can be counted

The Expert's Mind has few possibilities.
The Beginner's mind has endless possibilities.
Shunryu Suzuki, Roshi


Top
 Profile  
Reply with quote  
 
 Post subject: Re: Synthetic Bore oils
PostPosted: Sat Mar 07, 2020 11:32 pm 
Offline
User avatar

Joined: Sat Jan 29, 2005 4:22 am
Posts: 939
Location: San Pedro
an seanduine wrote:
I find the primary action of oils on wood instruments is to slowdown both the uptake, and release of moisture. The wood is dead, true, but still retains the physical structure (scaffolding, if you will) of the wood cells. This consists primarily of cellulose, which is rather hydrophilic, and lignin, which can be thought of the ´glue´ that holds the cells to each other. The lignin is slightly less hydrophilic. Under a microscope you can readily see the growing and shrinking of the structure of the wood cells as moisture is added and removed. It is as though the wood is still ´alive´. Too much movement is what plays the devil on our instruments. The oil provides a partial vapor barrier to slow this movement down a bit.
For my own part, I prefer jojoba oil for instrument bores. It is technically not an oil, but a wax that remains more or less liquid at room temperatures. For this reason it isn´t much prone to degradation, and slower to evaporate, so I can go longer between applications.

YMMV
Bob
i heard Someone the other day mentioned Jojoba. Yes it is a wax but I don’t think jojoba lets moisture in it totally is a barrier. Don’t know if that’s good. Need to researching i think jojoba is better for the outside of the flute,

_________________
Choose you this day, whom ye shall serve


Top
 Profile  
Reply with quote  
 
 Post subject: Re: Synthetic Bore oils
PostPosted: Sun Mar 08, 2020 12:06 am 
Offline
User avatar

Joined: Sun Sep 13, 2009 10:06 pm
Posts: 1581
Location: just outside Xanadu
Cavefish, I have used jojoba for well over a decade. It is not a barrier. Playing a little used flute with loose rings, the rings tightened up over a period several hours. It does evaporate over a long time. I suppose technically you could say it sublimates, but that may be a quibble. It does mean I can apply it infrequently.

Bob

_________________
Not everything you can count, counts. And not everything that counts, can be counted

The Expert's Mind has few possibilities.
The Beginner's mind has endless possibilities.
Shunryu Suzuki, Roshi


Top
 Profile  
Reply with quote  
 
 Post subject: Re: Synthetic Bore oils
PostPosted: Sun Mar 08, 2020 3:53 am 
Offline

Joined: Sun Mar 25, 2018 5:40 am
Posts: 790
I don't know anything about bore oil, but the Alisyn cork grease is great stuff


Top
 Profile  
Reply with quote  
 
 Post subject: Re: Synthetic Bore oils
PostPosted: Sun Mar 08, 2020 10:52 am 
Offline
User avatar

Joined: Sat Jan 29, 2005 4:22 am
Posts: 939
Location: San Pedro
well ,i had very nice talk with Windward flutes, very helpful and informational, the main reasons for synthetics and I short summarized it ,,,are synthetic bore oils, never hardens and helps prevent the moisture content from evaporating too quickly in the flute wood. most vegetable oils go rancid over time, they leave deposits in nooks and crannies over time, also some people have allergies to tree nuts,,
they specialise in lighter coloured tropical hardwoods, Mopane and African Olive for instance, and changed our process to avoid the linseed oil "old-house smell" and the way it discoloured and greyed our lovely wood.

they use (Alisyn)because they manufacture lubricants for the food industry, and they want to have the safest oils and greases for the health of their players. and are also able to discuss any questions they might have with one of their chemists. ,,

in a nut shell They use synthetics because its an all around better choice for them, and their business practices, as far as Alysen, they seemed the best choice for synthetics ,,,, there are other sythetics out there,, i recently found some Roche -Thomas in my house, i guees it simply comes down to a choice

_________________
Choose you this day, whom ye shall serve


Top
 Profile  
Reply with quote  
 
 Post subject: Re: Synthetic Bore oils
PostPosted: Sun Mar 08, 2020 11:27 am 
Offline

Joined: Wed Dec 19, 2018 6:44 pm
Posts: 7
Location: Galicia, Spain
Quote:
well stable could simply mean shelf life, almond its pretty long, and if vitamin E is added, i think it lasts longer,, but degredation is still a player,, some thoughts are the wood is dead, soooo one is not trying to bring it back alive just keep it from cracking :D

In that case by stable I meant how long it takes the oil you buy to spoil, and how these oils evolve within the flute. As many flutemakers recommend synthetic oils I suppose they have advantages over vegetable oils because they will degrade less than organic ones. The question, in my opinion, is how does the type of oil and its application affect the wood?
Obviously, I am no expert I have to rely on the recommendations of the flutemakers. I live in a very humid region. I oil the flutes to find conditions that I am comfortable with when I play and that the wood does not contract/expand too much.


Top
 Profile  
Reply with quote  
 
 Post subject: Re: Synthetic Bore oils
PostPosted: Sun Mar 08, 2020 12:38 pm 
Offline
User avatar

Joined: Sat Jan 29, 2005 4:22 am
Posts: 939
Location: San Pedro
dres wrote:
Quote:
well stable could simply mean shelf life, almond its pretty long, and if vitamin E is added, i think it lasts longer,, but degredation is still a player,, some thoughts are the wood is dead, soooo one is not trying to bring it back alive just keep it from cracking :D

In that case by stable I meant how long it takes the oil you buy to spoil, and how these oils evolve within the flute. As many flutemakers recommend synthetic oils I suppose they have advantages over vegetable oils because they will degrade less than organic ones. The question, in my opinion, is how does the type of oil and its application affect the wood?
Obviously, I am no expert I have to rely on the recommendations of the flutemakers. I live in a very humid region. I oil the flutes to find conditions that I am comfortable with when I play and that the wood does not contract/expand too much.
well from what the synthetic makers say and the makers that use them the absorption and exude time is decreased with no residue , the wood is dead so all to worry about is rapid absortion and moisture release times, slowing it down ,is the trick ,, i would imagine this rapid result is where the cracks happen,
well i got a MSDS sheet on Alysin bore oil, it doent tell you squat , no viscosity level, vaporization, any ingredients, what ever formula they leave it secret, they just llist the standard health issues aquatinted with it
, at least Roche Thomas listed white oil 70, which is mineral with Vit E in it
these 2 would be my choice from looking at it , Roche is amber color , Alysin is clear, so i would not use it on boxwood or mopane unless you wanted a darker tint,, Boxwood is nice looking with a tan color, mopane is fine he way it is,,
as of now i am testing vaporization levels on Roche vs almond vs Doctors products bore oils

got some Alisyn cork and slide grease, seems nice smooth movement stays in place 4.60 free shipping cant beat it

_________________
Choose you this day, whom ye shall serve


Top
 Profile  
Reply with quote  
 
 Post subject: Re: Synthetic Bore oils
PostPosted: Tue Mar 10, 2020 6:18 pm 
Offline
User avatar

Joined: Sat Jan 29, 2005 4:22 am
Posts: 939
Location: San Pedro
dres wrote:
Quote:
well stable could simply mean shelf life, almond its pretty long, and if vitamin E is added, i think it lasts longer,, but degredation is still a player,, some thoughts are the wood is dead, soooo one is not trying to bring it back alive just keep it from cracking :D

In that case by stable I meant how long it takes the oil you buy to spoil, and how these oils evolve within the flute. As many flutemakers recommend synthetic oils I suppose they have advantages over vegetable oils because they will degrade less than organic ones. The question, in my opinion, is how does the type of oil and its application affect the wood?
Obviously, I am no expert I have to rely on the recommendations of the flutemakers. I live in a very humid region. I oil the flutes to find conditions that I am comfortable with when I play and that the wood does not contract/expand too much.
this being your case, one could simple oil more frequently , or use synth oil less, If in fact and it is, that natural oils degrade then this is in your wood, but evaporization, water wash out, wiping and oil times keep things fresh, :D , its not like your oiling the crap out of it and keeping it in a case for a year or two, then that i see would be a problem, when i talked to Windward flutes they said when they cleaned up/serviced flutes they saw residues, but whos to say what they (the flute owners) were using, walnut oil gets thick snd sticky, coconut is the same olive and so on, Alot of variables in play i have used Doctors products for years in other flutes and wood projects, they say they are natural , but it never goes rancid,, i wrote them to see how this is so, being natural

_________________
Choose you this day, whom ye shall serve


Top
 Profile  
Reply with quote  
 
 Post subject: Re: Synthetic Bore oils
PostPosted: Sun Mar 29, 2020 5:42 pm 
Offline
User avatar

Joined: Sat Jan 29, 2005 4:22 am
Posts: 939
Location: San Pedro
well for anyone who cares, i did a simple viscosity test on Doctors bore oil, Alisyns, and almond--- almond was the thinnest , then Doctors then alisyns,, as far as pore penetration i would think the thinner ones penetrate better, the thicker one well it might have a better barrier, -- i have been doing a vaporization test on the same , and a couple weeks went by no change so it was useless, because frequent , infrequent playing can change factors anyway- simple conclusion,, most oils in this catagory are fine,,, i was bored :D

_________________
Choose you this day, whom ye shall serve


Top
 Profile  
Reply with quote  
 
 Post subject: Re: Synthetic Bore oils
PostPosted: Sun Mar 29, 2020 6:36 pm 
Offline

Joined: Sat Mar 15, 2003 8:06 pm
Posts: 479
bored bored :lol: :lol: :lol:


Top
 Profile  
Reply with quote  
 
 Post subject: Re: Synthetic Bore oils
PostPosted: Mon Mar 30, 2020 9:17 pm 
Offline

Joined: Wed Mar 14, 2012 1:15 pm
Posts: 8
Location: Utah
The maker of my flute recommends a light coat of Almond oil. Anecdotally, this has worked well for me for many years. I lightly oil my flute every month or so. I think it is crucial, after oiling (especially with organics) and letting your flute set for a bit, that any surface oil is wiped free from the bore and exterior to prevent it from leaving residue or build up.

As a life long hobby woodworker, this process seemed natural to me; especially living in a dry environment. I always felt a light coat of oil helped keep wood supple and somewhat resistant to the movement of moisture. Although, Blackwood doesn't seem to soak up much. And, again, anecdotally, I see the moisture bead up and run off a tad after oiling as opposed to moisture coating the wood. I also notice my flute plays better (could this be all in my head?) In the same manner, I sometimes oil wooden kitchen utensils with an organic oil to preserve them and keep them from drying and cracking--always taking care to completely wipe away any oil that doesn't soak into the wood.

As always, I defer to the experts and the wonderful workers of flute craft!


Top
 Profile  
Reply with quote  
 
 Post subject: Re: Synthetic Bore oils
PostPosted: Mon Mar 30, 2020 9:49 pm 
Offline
User avatar

Joined: Sat Jan 29, 2005 4:22 am
Posts: 939
Location: San Pedro
BKWeid wrote:
The maker of my flute recommends a light coat of Almond oil. Anecdotally, this has worked well for me for many years. I lightly oil my flute every month or so. I think it is crucial, after oiling (especially with organics) and letting your flute set for a bit, that any surface oil is wiped free from the bore and exterior to prevent it from leaving residue or build up.

As a life long hobby woodworker, this process seemed natural to me; especially living in a dry environment. I always felt a light coat of oil helped keep wood supple and somewhat resistant to the movement of moisture. Although, Blackwood doesn't seem to soak up much. And, again, anecdotally, I see the moisture bead up and run off a tad after oiling as opposed to moisture coating the wood. I also notice my flute plays better (could this be all in my head?) In the same manner, I sometimes oil wooden kitchen utensils with an organic oil to preserve them and keep them from drying and cracking--always taking care to completely wipe away any oil that doesn't soak into the wood.

As always, I defer to the experts and the wonderful workers of flute craft!

oiling is the best , i have worked with wood for years , and oiling leaves it nice and stable , i myself used almond with a bit of Vit E in it, almond last years in the right bottle, in the dark,, and it is very light viscosity,, used walnut before , it gets sticky and gets old fast, a light oil and maybe a thin waxing on the outside, a almond /beezwax blend is nice

_________________
Choose you this day, whom ye shall serve


Top
 Profile  
Reply with quote  
Display posts from previous:  Sort by  
Post new topic Reply to topic  [ 30 posts ]  Go to page Previous  1, 2

All times are UTC - 6 hours


Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 5 guests


You cannot post new topics in this forum
You cannot reply to topics in this forum
You cannot edit your posts in this forum
You cannot delete your posts in this forum

Search for:
Jump to:  
Powered by phpBB® Forum Software © phpBB Group
[ Time : 0.171s | 12 Queries | GZIP : On ]
(dh)