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PostPosted: Wed Feb 05, 2020 4:15 am 
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A Thomas Welsh eight-key cocuswood flute is for sale at Arthur Haswells for £995. Thomas Welsh was a vocalist and music publisher, 1828-1838 (Langwills index). I think this flute could have been made by Wylde for Welsh, as it looks like a R&R from that period. https://www.arthurhaswell.co.uk/thomas-welsh-8-key


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PostPosted: Mon Feb 10, 2020 6:12 am 
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Nice well spotted .

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PostPosted: Mon Feb 10, 2020 8:49 pm 
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Question: The description says the flute contains some ivory (in the screw cap), but says there's no VAT if it's bought by someone in the US. Will they do all the paperwork so that it can legally cross national boundaries? I thought this was very difficult these days.

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PostPosted: Mon Feb 10, 2020 9:21 pm 
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chas wrote:
Question: The description says the flute contains some ivory (in the screw cap), but says there's no VAT if it's bought by someone in the US. Will they do all the paperwork so that it can legally cross national boundaries? I thought this was very difficult these days.


My understanding [italics mine] from https://www.fws.gov/international/trave ... swers.html and various US Wildlife definition pages:

Can I import items… African elephant ivory [African Elephant Conservation Act]

…for noncommercial purposes? [the broader definition of commercial more accurately reflects what we consider as “engaging in business.”]

Certain noncommercial imports are allowed when specific criteria are met:

You may import a worked African elephant ivory item into the United States for the noncommercial purposes listed below if it was legally acquired and removed from the wild prior to the listing of the African elephant under CITES (February 26, 1976):

Quote:
What does “legally acquired prior to February 26, 1976” mean?

February 26, 1976, is the date the African elephant was first listed under CITES (the pre-Convention date). An item that contains African elephant ivory that was removed from the wild prior to February 26, 1976, is considered to be a pre-Convention specimen. This does not mean that the current owner must have purchased or acquired it prior to 1976, but that the item was manufactured from ivory that was taken from the wild prior to 1976.

For example, a musical instrument that was manufactured in 1965 using African elephant ivory would be considered a pre-Convention specimen. Likewise, an instrument manufactured in 1985 using ivory acquired by the manufacturer in 1975 would also be considered a pre-Convention specimen. Since it is unlawful to possess specimens that have been traded contrary to CITES or taken in violation of the ESA [Endangered Species Act], the ivory must have been legally acquired.


Worked ivory that was legally acquired and removed from the wild prior to February 26, 1976 and is either:

Part of a musical instrument; or

We do not require an ESA import permit for ivory items imported as part of a household move, inheritance, musical instrument, or traveling exhibition.

All ivory items must be accompanied by a valid CITES document from the country of export. You can find contact information for CITES offices at the following website: http://cites.org/eng/cms/index.php/component/cp

All wildlife (including parts and products) imported into or exported from the United States for any purpose must be declared to the U.S. Fish & Wildlife Service Office of Law Enforcement. Contact the port you intend to use for more information.

If the item is an antique, it must enter through an endangered species “antique port.” U.S. Customs and Border Protection (CBP) designated 13 ports for the entry of antiques made of ESA-listed species on September 22, 1982 (19 C.F.R. 12.26). The following ports are authorized: Boston, Massachusetts; New York, New York; Baltimore, Maryland, Philadelphia, Pennsylvania; Miami, Florida; San Juan, Puerto Rico; New Orleans, Louisiana; Houston, Texas; Los Angeles, California; San Francisco, California; Anchorage, Alaska, Honolulu, Hawaii; and Chicago, Illinois.

Pretty similar language for

Asian elephant ivory may only be imported into the United States for noncommercial purposes if it qualifies as antique, or as pre-Act or is accompanied by an ESA export permit for scientific or enhancement of survival purposes.

To qualify for the ESA antiques exemption, an item must meet all of the following criteria [seller/importer/exporter must demonstrate]:

A: It is 100 years or older.

B: It is composed in whole or in part of an ESA-listed species;

C: It has not been repaired or modified with any such species after December 27, 1973; and

D: It is being or was imported through an endangered species “antique port.”*


TO ME, the above indicates that the exporter would need to provide a CITES export document, identify/declare the item as an "antique [age], musical instrument, containing ivory [legally acquired & unmodified, as originally manufactured with musical instrument]". Certainly any other documentation supporting the instrument's origin woud likely be helpful. I think the declaration would enable the package to be directed to one of the valid ports for examination & clearance & ultimate delivery.

Do you want to go in halfsies :lol: ?

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PostPosted: Tue Feb 11, 2020 4:46 pm 
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Thanks for that detailed post, Kevin. I was remembering the two kids with antique pipes with ivory mounts who had them confiscated coming back from Canada. I now remember that they hadn't done the paperwork. I have no idea how easy the paperwork is to do, though, nor what happens if the sender forgets it. I have a Cameron flute with ivory mounts, won't even try taking it across national borders.

I do like the look and price of this one. I'm still holding my breath, though, hoping the Olwells will have a fully keyed foot in the not-too-distant future.

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PostPosted: Tue Feb 11, 2020 6:05 pm 
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If I were going to buy this flute (which I am not), I would just have them keep (or throw away) the small ivory cork
holder that threads inside the crown, and have a new one made for it when it gets here. It is such a small, relatively
insignificant, an almost invisible part of this flute that I don't think it would be worth the risk of having the flute confiscated,
or the trouble of trying to get the valid paperwork for export, which I suspect is either impossible or prohibitively expensive.

The only visible piece of ivory is the finial that sticks out of the end of the crown, and in its original condition this piece was
likely covered by a nickel or silver cap anyway.


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PostPosted: Wed Feb 12, 2020 5:18 am 
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Alternatively, ask Haswells to send the ivory finial separately in an envelope. The customs may well miss it & nothing is lost if they don't.


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PostPosted: Wed Feb 12, 2020 7:06 am 
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Hello AlanG, knowing Arthur personally and as a customer, I highly doubt he would send the ivory part by separate cover. He is fastidious and completely transparent in his customs declarations and I cannot imagine him going against his integrity.

On this difficult topic, I am wanting to buy a Sam Murray traverso from him at the moment, a reasonably rare flute. It has bone rings. Bone, not ivory. With much help from Arthur looking into this for import to me here in Australia, and with extensive correspondence on my Australian end with the government, it appears that the bone will almost certainly be misunderstood as ivory by less than expert customs officers, and the flute seized at entry. No amount of paperwork it seems will satisfy the Australian Government, This is bone, not ivory, but both Arthur and I after several months of enquiries feel the risk of the traverso being seized is very very high - and the decision of Border Force (what a name) over here is final and no negotiation possible. It's simply going to have to stay in England.

While I understand the reasons behind CITES protections, it is just excessive when it comes to tiny amounts of wood or ivory in musical instruments. They are not the problem. The only good thing I can say about CITES is that after fifteen years of negotiations they finally relented on Dalbergia species for musical instruments, so you can now freely transport and trade African Blackwood flutes without paperwork or hindrance. About jolly time. I suppose we should be thankful to the delegates who pushed this so hard for a decade and a half.

Andrew

[ps. I think the lovely Welsh has been sold, as Arthur has taken it off his website.]


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PostPosted: Wed Feb 12, 2020 7:59 am 
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Andro wrote:
[ps. I think the lovely Welsh has been sold, as Arthur has taken it off his website.]

Removed from his /Sales page, but the direct link page (in the OP's 1st post in this thread) is still live to me (even after clearing cache & also checking in a different browser). Perhaps a sale is in progress, though. If it's a Wylde-made flute, it would certainly be a good value.

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