It is currently Fri Feb 21, 2020 4:40 am

All times are UTC - 6 hours




Post new topic Reply to topic  [ 111 posts ]  Go to page 1, 2, 3, 4, 5 ... 8  Next
Author Message
 
PostPosted: Fri Jan 10, 2020 4:52 pm 
Offline
User avatar

Joined: Mon Feb 15, 2010 1:51 pm
Posts: 26
Location: Barcelona (Spain)
The simple-system wooden flute is commonly called “Irish flute” https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Irish_flute However, most wooden flute players nowadays know that the “Irish flute” is simply the 19th century English flute http://www.oldflutes.com/english.htm, originally designed and used to play art music available at the time (e.g. Mozart, Beethoven, Schubert, Mendelssohn, Chopin, etc). The English flutist Charles Nicholson https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Charles ... _(flautist), probably the most well-known performer at the time, played an important role in the development of the large-hole flutes and reedy tone favored by many players today. The role of Irish players in saving the instrument after the Boehm system almost killed it altogether needs to be acknowledged http://www.standingstones.com/irflute.html. However, I think it’s about time to call things what they are. Wooden flute players from Scotland/Nova Scotia (e.g. Calum Stewart and Chris Norman) or Brittany (e.g JM Veillon) have clearly proven that the 19th century flute can be played with many different accents, and the Irish is only one of them.

_________________
Avatar picture: Ribas' improved flute by Scott. To find out more about J.M. Ribas, the Spanish flutist who replaced Charles Nicholson after his death, go to:

http://www.mcgee-flutes.com/Ribas.htm

http://sites.google.com/site/ribasmusicos2/home2


Last edited by Javier Vila on Sun Jan 12, 2020 3:13 pm, edited 2 times in total.

Top
 Profile  
Reply with quote  
 
PostPosted: Fri Jan 10, 2020 6:36 pm 
Offline

Joined: Sat Mar 15, 2003 8:06 pm
Posts: 437
All of the above


Top
 Profile  
Reply with quote  
 
PostPosted: Fri Jan 10, 2020 6:51 pm 
Offline
User avatar

Joined: Tue Aug 30, 2011 5:39 pm
Posts: 2957
Location: Kinlochleven
My feelings on this have been recorded here before. I hate the term 'Irish flute' unless it refers to playing style and/or an instrument of genuinely Irish provenance. But I'd also be careful with descriptors like 'English' or 'wooden' despite the best-known models inspiring modern makers being both of those things, because they don't have to be either and you can equally get wooden Boehm flutes etc.

Like so many things (e.g. so-called classical music), there's just no one single, short, accurate and widely understood term for the instrument(s) we're talking about. So 'Irish' may be the most convenient or least of evils to some, but it fails the accuracy test and I still hate it!

_________________
And we in dreams behold the Hebrides.

Why I teach... and where
Master of nine?


Top
 Profile  
Reply with quote  
 
PostPosted: Fri Jan 10, 2020 9:05 pm 
Offline
User avatar

Joined: Sat Aug 04, 2012 7:12 pm
Posts: 263
Location: Pacific Northwest USA
I dislike the term "Irish flute" even though I use it frequently in online conversations because I'm usually talking with others who know what that's shorthand for. In addition to Irish tunes I play many Scottish and some Breton tunes. Something like 40% of what I play on this flute isn't Irish, but it's closely related.

I do think we have to respect the fact that while we don't like the term, it does allow modern makers of 19th Century wooden conical bore flute copies and modern versions to market flutes and stay in business. If the term "Irish flute" helps keep these makers in business, I'm for it. Antique flutes don't age well, and we need to keep the modern flute makers in business.

Hey, it could be worse. They could be called "Celtic flutes." :)


Top
 Profile  
Reply with quote  
 
PostPosted: Fri Jan 10, 2020 9:18 pm 
Offline
Moderatorer
User avatar

Joined: Wed Dec 18, 2002 6:00 pm
Posts: 35064
Location: Minneapolis
Well, the problem is that the greater public has pretty much conferred the term "Irish flute" upon it. And to be fair, the Irish trad fad was the primary vehicle by which it lately re-entered into public consciousness in the first place. That's why for convenience's sake I call it the "so-called Irish flute" when talking to the laity, because I think the "so-called" part is important. If you want someone to desperately look for the exit, try "Mid-to-late 19th century simple-system conical bore Romantic period wood flute". "Pre-Boehm" might do, but few average ears are ready for that, either. There's hardly any other way to speak of these flutes to Joe Punter these days without a torrent of words. If folks want to look for these flutes online, "Irish flute" will get them there the fastest. Stemming that nomenclatural tide any time soon is going to be the work of a forlorn hope. But it's worth trying to find a way all the same.

Back in the day they were called "English" flutes, and before that, "German" flutes. Fortunately, hereabouts we can get away with just saying "flute", and the meaning's pretty well assured.

_________________
"Time is the wisest counselor of all." - Pericles

"I remain not entirely convinced of it." - Nano


Top
 Profile  
Reply with quote  
 
PostPosted: Sat Jan 11, 2020 1:18 am 
Offline
User avatar

Joined: Mon Jun 07, 2010 11:31 am
Posts: 5094
Location: the Back of Beyond
Quote:
Well, the problem is that the greater public has pretty much conferred the term "Irish flute" upon it.


Did it though? I never heard anyone call the instrument 'the Irish Flute' outside the internet and then the usage seems mostly American based. People play 'the flute' and some older generation players used 'concert flute', 'the timber flute' or sometimes (though rarely) the 'German flute', to distinguish it from the whistle.

_________________
My brain hurts

Image


Top
 Profile  
Reply with quote  
 
PostPosted: Sat Jan 11, 2020 4:00 am 
Offline
User avatar

Joined: Mon Feb 15, 2010 1:51 pm
Posts: 26
Location: Barcelona (Spain)
Mr.Gumby wrote:
Quote:
Well, the problem is that the greater public has pretty much conferred the term "Irish flute" upon it.


Did it though? I never heard anyone call the instrument 'the Irish Flute' outside the internet and then the usage seems mostly American based. People play 'the flute' and some older generation players used 'concert flute', 'the timber flute' or sometimes (though rarely) the 'German flute', to distinguish it from the whistle.


I particularly like the term “Concert flute” which I’ve seen in many Irish flute methods. I think this was probably the most common term used in Ireland before the internet\USA influence. It also acknowledges its origin as an instrument for art music.

_________________
Avatar picture: Ribas' improved flute by Scott. To find out more about J.M. Ribas, the Spanish flutist who replaced Charles Nicholson after his death, go to:

http://www.mcgee-flutes.com/Ribas.htm

http://sites.google.com/site/ribasmusicos2/home2


Top
 Profile  
Reply with quote  
 
PostPosted: Sat Jan 11, 2020 4:04 am 
Offline
User avatar

Joined: Tue Aug 30, 2011 5:39 pm
Posts: 2957
Location: Kinlochleven
Nanohedron wrote:
That's why for convenience's sake I call it the "so-called Irish flute" when talking to the laity, because I think the "so-called" part is important. If you want someone to desperately look for the exit, try "Mid-to-late 19th century simple-system conical bore Romantic period wood flute".

Similar to my problems with so-called classical music. We have both Classical music and (so-called) classical music, and there's no convenient and accurate term for the latter. I don't like the broad-brush application of 'classical' when I'm trying to teach the term as applying to the era of Haydn, Mozart and Beethoven, and don't like art music, serious music etc. for the implication that other genres aren't these things. So sometimes jokingly refer to 'music for violins and things by mostly dead composers', which is absolutely no better or more accurate (and I make sure to say that too), but gets a laugh and makes a point.

Quote:
Fortunately, hereabouts we can get away with just saying "flute", and the meaning's pretty well assured.

That works for me whether talking about trad, simple system, baroque, Boehm or whatever, so I'll generally just use flute unless further clarification is necessary for others. If someone asked me what instruments I play, I'd start the flute department with flute or maybe various flutes rather than trad flute (which is really no better than 'Irish' to describe the instrument!), baroque flute and Boehm flute, but be prepared to explain further...

Javier Vila wrote:
I particularly like the term “Concert flute” which I’ve seen in many Irish flute methods. I think this was probably the most common term used in Ireland before the internet\USA influence. It also acknowledges its origin as an instrument for art music.

But you can play other types of flute in concerts!

_________________
And we in dreams behold the Hebrides.

Why I teach... and where
Master of nine?


Top
 Profile  
Reply with quote  
 
PostPosted: Sat Jan 11, 2020 4:06 am 
Offline

Joined: Mon Aug 13, 2007 2:04 am
Posts: 1245
Location: Mercia
I'm in England. If I say 'flute' most people, whether they know about flutes or not, think metal boehm (or "shiny thing with lots of keys"). If I say 'wooden flute' people who don't know about flutes don't think of a shiny thing and people who do know about flutes usually seek clarification but seem to think simple-system (one said "concert flute ?") or baroque rather than wooden boehm.

I may be wrong but I think that for people who play traditional music the fact that it is a flute of some sort - rather than a fiddle, box, whistle or whatever - is more important than what sort of flute.

[crossing a couple of times]

The problem I find with 'concert flute' is that people who don't know about flutes think of the thing they would see at an orchestral concert, which makes sense to me.


Top
 Profile  
Reply with quote  
 
PostPosted: Sat Jan 11, 2020 4:09 am 
Offline
User avatar

Joined: Mon Jun 07, 2010 11:31 am
Posts: 5094
Location: the Back of Beyond
Quote:
But you can play other types of flute in concerts!


And you can play all sorts of pitches in concert, yet some people play 'concert pitch'. :P

_________________
My brain hurts

Image


Top
 Profile  
Reply with quote  
 
PostPosted: Sat Jan 11, 2020 4:17 am 
Offline

Joined: Mon Aug 14, 2017 5:47 am
Posts: 712
Location: Surrey/Hants border, England
Celtic flute, as against concert flute, though not absolutely true, is a far better description.

(Concert flute to the majority of people is the Boehm flute.)

But, I normally consider it a folk flute, because that is the most common music played on it.

_________________
Keith.
Trying to do justice to my various musical instruments.


Top
 Profile  
Reply with quote  
 
PostPosted: Sat Jan 11, 2020 4:30 am 
Offline

Joined: Thu Jul 25, 2002 6:00 pm
Posts: 2778
Location: Sweden
Quote:
Traditionally, the simple-system wooden flute has been called “Irish flute”


Not true. In Ireland, England, and Scotland I've heard musicians say flute, timber flute and concert flute, and non musicians say flute, as Mr. Gumby has remarked. Here in Sweden musicians and the general public say flute (flöjt), or timber flute (träflöjt), never the "Irish flute" (den irländska flöjten). In a similar manner the term "Irish American" is overkill here in Europe. We just say American.


Top
 Profile  
Reply with quote  
 
PostPosted: Sat Jan 11, 2020 4:37 am 
Offline
User avatar

Joined: Mon Jun 07, 2010 11:31 am
Posts: 5094
Location: the Back of Beyond
Quote:
Celtic flute, as against concert flute, though not absolutely true, is a far better description.


No, it isn't. It is an absolutely ridiculous description.

_________________
My brain hurts

Image


Top
 Profile  
Reply with quote  
 
PostPosted: Sat Jan 11, 2020 4:43 am 
Offline
Moderator
User avatar

Joined: Wed Jan 14, 2009 5:21 pm
Posts: 12787
Location: Unimportant island off the great mainland of Europe
Javier Vila wrote:
Traditionally, the simple-system wooden flute has been called “Irish flute”

No it hasn't! Traditionally, the simple-system wooden flute has been called a "flute". (Obviously, there are those other terms that people in certain parts call it - "concert flute" etc, as others have said.)

You're also making an error of logic, I believe: saying that "the simple-system wooden flute has been called "Irish flute"" is not the same thing as saying that the term "Irish flute" has traditionally been applied to the simple-system wooden flute, and I think you're getting the two things mixed up. (As it happens, I don't think either is right, but they're clearly not the same thing, whether one believes that the terms have validity from a "traditional" standpoint or not.)

fatmac wrote:
Celtic flute, as against concert flute, though not absolutely true, is a far better description.

(Concert flute to the majority of people is the Boehm flute.)

But, I normally consider it a folk flute, because that is the most common music played on it.

Aagh! There's so much I disagree with in this!

Firstly, I can't stand the term "celtic" as applied to anything, largely, because it's almost always misapplied. It conveys, to me, a meaningless mush, that, in the eyes of many, encompasses loads of things that are definitely not celtic, such as Tolkien, runes, Scandinavian stuff etc I've even found, in Canada for instance, that English stuff is somehow regarded as "celtic". Beats me, that one ...

Secondly, to the people I play music with, in general, the term "concert flute" most definitely would conjure up a picture of a keyed, simple system, wooden flute. Even the classical musicians I know - and I still play a bit in and around various orchestras - would look a bit blank at the term. To them, "flute" is sufficient to conjure up a picture of a shiny, metal, Boehm system flute. I don't think I've ever heard one of them use the term "concert flute". Maybe it's different in different parts of the country ...

"Folk flute", aside from referring to the specific product that Casey Burns makes, strikes me again, like "celtic" to be mushy, and of no real meaning.

Can we not just say "flute" unless the context demands that we specify what sort of flute we're talking about, in which case we'd tailor our language to the person we're talking to? That would seem like more normal human behaviour to me.

[cross-posted with steampacket and Mr.G]

_________________
"Only connect!"

https://youtu.be/ezbWVysJAOY
https://tapm.bandcamp.com/


Top
 Profile  
Reply with quote  
 
PostPosted: Sat Jan 11, 2020 6:17 am 
Offline

Joined: Sun Mar 25, 2018 5:40 am
Posts: 748
I tell people around here "irish flute" and they know what I mean right away, or at least they have something to relate it to. At worst they imagine some bit from "riverdance."

Sometimes I say "the wooden flute" but then people imagine a new age guy in the woods or wandering in the desert, and if it's a choice between two bad stereotypes--riverdance or woods guy--the riverdance bit is more accurate so I say "Irish flute." I usually say "wooden flute' to people who know something about woodwinds, but sometimes they then imagine I'm a person who spent many thousands of dollars on a wooden Boehm flute.

If I say "conical bore simple system diatonic keyless flute" the number of people who will understand decreases exponentially.

If I'm talking to a person involved in ITM I just say "the flute."

In the US "irish flute" is your best bet at being understood. In Ireland it probably makes no sense at all. I try not to use "celtic" unless I'm talking about the Boston basketball team, and as a Philly guy I never talk about the boston basketball team unless it's unavoidable


Top
 Profile  
Reply with quote  
Display posts from previous:  Sort by  
Post new topic Reply to topic  [ 111 posts ]  Go to page 1, 2, 3, 4, 5 ... 8  Next

All times are UTC - 6 hours


Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 8 guests


You cannot post new topics in this forum
You cannot reply to topics in this forum
You cannot edit your posts in this forum
You cannot delete your posts in this forum

Search for:
Jump to:  
Powered by phpBB® Forum Software © phpBB Group
[ Time : 0.152s | 11 Queries | GZIP : On ]
(dh)