It is currently Thu Jan 23, 2020 8:32 am

All times are UTC - 6 hours




Post new topic Reply to topic  [ 28 posts ]  Go to page Previous  1, 2
Author Message
 
PostPosted: Tue Jan 07, 2020 4:05 pm 
Offline

Joined: Tue Feb 21, 2012 1:36 pm
Posts: 54
jeeeeesus,
does nobody use the search function or even looks through the last dozen or so discussions?
I think its kinda disrespectful to the community to put such little effort in, before starting a discussion.
Basically the same question is asked every month or two.


Top
 Profile  
Reply with quote  
 
PostPosted: Tue Jan 07, 2020 4:48 pm 
Offline

Joined: Sun May 01, 2016 6:54 am
Posts: 299
Just a question -- what about M&E-flutes? I've read good things about them and I am on the lookout for an affordable delrin-flute, too.
Edit: last thread about "beginner" flutes.
viewtopic.php?f=2&t=109787


Top
 Profile  
Reply with quote  
 
PostPosted: Tue Jan 07, 2020 8:24 pm 
Offline

Joined: Sun Mar 25, 2018 5:40 am
Posts: 714
I have an M&E and it’s not bad. The price to value ratio is great. I got a more expensive flute I like better, but the m&e made it very easy to get the hard tone that Irish traditional musicians tend towards. They are a little heavy and mine has less range, less dynamic range. It’s quieter and less free blowing.


Top
 Profile  
Reply with quote  
 
PostPosted: Wed Jan 08, 2020 4:56 am 
Offline

Joined: Sun May 01, 2016 6:54 am
Posts: 299
Thanks a bunch :) ! Can you tell me exactly how much it weighs? I made some flutes from different aluminium tubes and the one sounding most "woody" has a 3mm wall and weighs 320 grams, which is almost too much to play it for longer times. My thumbs start to hurt after a while. And I don't know if I should really shell out the money for a delrin flute if it might be too heavy. I made flutes with just a 1.5 mm wall and they play lovely, too and weigh much less. I can play those for hours and hours.


Top
 Profile  
Reply with quote  
 
PostPosted: Wed Jan 08, 2020 3:22 pm 
Offline
User avatar

Joined: Tue Aug 30, 2011 5:39 pm
Posts: 2941
Location: Kinlochleven
tstermitz wrote:
Ah, now I understand about the C-hole, and that it is a particular design decision for keyless flutes.

Not just for keyless flutes, but occasionally also for keyed because it's acoustically exactly equivalent to a C key.

My keyed flute has a C thumb hole, but it was a very conscious design decision for my particular needs. For a new player with ten fingers, I'd say try the standard keyed layout first!

Sedi wrote:
Can you tell me exactly how much it weighs? I made some flutes from different aluminium tubes and the one sounding most "woody" has a 3mm wall and weighs 320 grams, which is almost too much to play it for longer times.

Sedi, I don't know about M&E, but I posted some other flute weights here last year:
http://forums.chiffandfipple.com/viewtopic.php?f=2&t=108419#p1216651

Peter Duggan wrote:
Copley Delrin Eb (short D foot, silver rings) 276g
Copley Delrin D (short D foot, silver rings) 294g
Bernolin resin Delusse A=415 (so effectively a C# flute in A=440 terms) 298g
Copley Solomon blackwood (long D foot, four keys) 384g
Pearl silver-plated Boehm (C foot) 406g
Trevor James solid silver Boehm (C foot) 450g

Which put your 320g aluminium one a little heavier than my short-footed keyless or one-keyed flutes, but lighter than any with long foot and multiple keys.

PS chas also posted these there (mostly baroque models, but I don't think the weights should be radically different from keyless simple system):
chas wrote:
All the traversi are A415.

Olwell all-wood Nicholson (probably Brazilian rosewood): 230
Olwell (I think IH) Rottenburgh, kingwood: 238
Cameron A Grenser, boxwood: 236
Noy GA Rottenburgh, boxwood: 250
Aulos Stanesby Jr polymer: 346

_________________
And we in dreams behold the Hebrides.

Why I teach... and where
Master of nine?


Top
 Profile  
Reply with quote  
 
PostPosted: Wed Jan 08, 2020 3:47 pm 
Offline

Joined: Sun May 01, 2016 6:54 am
Posts: 299
Awesome, Peter, thanks a lot! That is really very helpful! (It seems like no flute-maker mentions the weight on his homepage, at least not that I could find.)


Top
 Profile  
Reply with quote  
 
PostPosted: Wed Jan 08, 2020 3:59 pm 
Offline
User avatar

Joined: Tue Aug 30, 2011 5:39 pm
Posts: 2941
Location: Kinlochleven
NB the Copley keyed flute has a lined head as well as the long foot!

_________________
And we in dreams behold the Hebrides.

Why I teach... and where
Master of nine?


Top
 Profile  
Reply with quote  
 
PostPosted: Wed Jan 08, 2020 9:28 pm 
Offline

Joined: Sat Aug 06, 2011 6:10 pm
Posts: 251
Location: Michigan
Sedi wrote:
Thanks a bunch :) ! Can you tell me exactly how much it weighs? I made some flutes from different aluminium tubes and the one sounding most "woody" has a 3mm wall and weighs 320 grams, which is almost too much to play it for longer times. My thumbs start to hurt after a while. And I don't know if I should really shell out the money for a delrin flute if it might be too heavy. I made flutes with just a 1.5 mm wall and they play lovely, too and weigh much less. I can play those for hours and hours.


Part of the reason the M&E is heavy is not because of the Delrin, but because the entire head joint is metal-lined.

_________________
Here's tae us--
Wha's like us?
Damn few--
And they're a' deid--
Mair's the pity.


Top
 Profile  
Reply with quote  
 
PostPosted: Wed Jan 15, 2020 8:59 am 
Offline
User avatar

Joined: Thu Jan 14, 2016 8:25 pm
Posts: 62
Location: Philadelphia, PA area
One thing you'll want to keep in mind as a Boehm player -- especially one with small hands -- is that you'll probably want to use what's called a "piper grip" on the bottom hand where you cover the holes not with the tips of your fingers but with the middle joints. If you google the term "piper grip flute" you should come up with some images that will help you sort it out. I have large hands, and I couldn't manage my flute without a piper grip on the bottom hand.

I must also confess that the flat C# drives me bats and that I've never once used the long C key. *Shrug* It's too annoying and inconvenient, although it does raise that C# to the point where it sounds much better. However, the Bb key does that decently enough to satisfy me to the point that I wouldn't even recommend getting a long C on a 19th century flute.

Intonation in general may be a bit weird for you; coming from the Boehm world, it might be worthwhile for you to think of an Irish/19th century flute not so much as a flute but as a kind of large bass piccolo. It's got much the same tuning response as a piccolo -- both conical bore.

And another vote for Dave Copley's keyless Delrin. His flutes are magnificent.

_________________
--
Home flute: 6-key Copley & Boegli Delrin D
https://accidentalflutist.wordpress.com/


Top
 Profile  
Reply with quote  
 
PostPosted: Wed Jan 15, 2020 12:03 pm 
Offline
User avatar

Joined: Tue Aug 30, 2011 5:39 pm
Posts: 2941
Location: Kinlochleven
JCortese wrote:
might be worthwhile for you to think of an Irish/19th century flute not so much as a flute but as a kind of large bass piccolo.

While I've read the whole post and considered the context, I think that's just nuts! Sorry.

_________________
And we in dreams behold the Hebrides.

Why I teach... and where
Master of nine?


Top
 Profile  
Reply with quote  
 
PostPosted: Sun Jan 19, 2020 10:24 am 
Offline
User avatar

Joined: Fri Jun 29, 2001 6:00 pm
Posts: 7983
Location: Boston, MA.
JCortese wrote:
One thing you'll want to keep in mind as a Boehm player -- especially one with small hands -- is that you'll probably want to use what's called a "piper grip" on the bottom hand where you cover the holes not with the tips of your fingers but with the middle joints. If you google the term "piper grip flute" you should come up with some images that will help you sort it out. I have large hands, and I couldn't manage my flute without a piper grip on the bottom hand.



I have small hands and have to disagree with this advice: You shouldn’t approach these flutes with a grip bias - piper’s grip on either hand is definitely not necessary for most most men or women, thumb placement and overall hand position are more the determining factors than hand size when it comes to using fingertip pads vs. second joint (“pipers grip”) pads.


Top
 Profile  
Reply with quote  
 
PostPosted: Sun Jan 19, 2020 8:08 pm 
Offline

Joined: Sat Aug 06, 2011 6:10 pm
Posts: 251
Location: Michigan
Loren wrote:
JCortese wrote:
One thing you'll want to keep in mind as a Boehm player -- especially one with small hands -- is that you'll probably want to use what's called a "piper grip" on the bottom hand where you cover the holes not with the tips of your fingers but with the middle joints. If you google the term "piper grip flute" you should come up with some images that will help you sort it out. I have large hands, and I couldn't manage my flute without a piper grip on the bottom hand.



I have small hands and have to disagree with this advice: You shouldn’t approach these flutes with a grip bias - piper’s grip on either hand is definitely not necessary for most most men or women, thumb placement and overall hand position are more the determining factors than hand size when it comes to using fingertip pads vs. second joint (“pipers grip”) pads.


And, my issue with reaching the holes is on the left hand, not the right. Right is fine. With my left, I have a hard time getting my arm around so my wrist approaches the flute straight on (as in, it is not possible for me regardless of the contortions I've tried). Which means I have issues reaching L3. The reach issue is compounded by the fact that my middle finger is barely wider than the L2 hole. and it's hard to get both perfect placement on that hole and also L3 completely covered. With a ton of practice I might manage it consistently, but within a couple minutes my wrist is aching... (Piper's grip on that hand? No way! If I can't reach well by using the fingers at the point where they're furthest spread apart, it certainly won't work further up the finger where they're closer together.)

So, this long example was to illustrate that it's not always that issues with reach have to do with the right hand, or will be fixed with piper's grip. Piper's grip is worth trying, but it's not always THE solution.

_________________
Here's tae us--
Wha's like us?
Damn few--
And they're a' deid--
Mair's the pity.


Top
 Profile  
Reply with quote  
 
PostPosted: Sun Jan 19, 2020 9:04 pm 
Offline
User avatar

Joined: Fri Jun 29, 2001 6:00 pm
Posts: 7983
Location: Boston, MA.
Katharine wrote:
Loren wrote:
JCortese wrote:
One thing you'll want to keep in mind as a Boehm player -- especially one with small hands -- is that you'll probably want to use what's called a "piper grip" on the bottom hand where you cover the holes not with the tips of your fingers but with the middle joints. If you google the term "piper grip flute" you should come up with some images that will help you sort it out. I have large hands, and I couldn't manage my flute without a piper grip on the bottom hand.



I have small hands and have to disagree with this advice: You shouldn’t approach these flutes with a grip bias - piper’s grip on either hand is definitely not necessary for most most men or women, thumb placement and overall hand position are more the determining factors than hand size when it comes to using fingertip pads vs. second joint (“pipers grip”) pads.


And, my issue with reaching the holes is on the left hand, not the right. Right is fine. With my left, I have a hard time getting my arm around so my wrist approaches the flute straight on (as in, it is not possible for me regardless of the contortions I've tried). Which means I have issues reaching L3. The reach issue is compounded by the fact that my middle finger is barely wider than the L2 hole. and it's hard to get both perfect placement on that hole and also L3 completely covered. With a ton of practice I might manage it consistently, but within a couple minutes my wrist is aching... (Piper's grip on that hand? No way! If I can't reach well by using the fingers at the point where they're furthest spread apart, it certainly won't work further up the finger where they're closer together.)

So, this long example was to illustrate that it's not always that issues with reach have to do with the right hand, or will be fixed with piper's grip. Piper's grip is worth trying, but it's not always THE solution.



Oh yeah, with small hands a straight left wrist is impossible at a certain point. I played with my left wrist quite bent for years, and eventually paid the price. Had to relearn to play with piper’s grip / my thumb on the side of the flute. It is definitely possible, but as with the right hand, it’s a matter of experimentation with the left in order to figure out how to make it work. So I both agree, and disagree with your post Katherine :wink:

Even playing piper’s grip on a standard block mounted flute is possible (at least on some flutes it is), but I ain’t gonna lie, it’s uncomfortable and I find it a real drag, plus keeping certain holes sealed can be hit or miss.

BTW, Piper’s grip isn’t uniform thing, there are multiple variations, so perhaps this is where misconceptions arise. Ultimately we have to find a way to best work with our own bodies to achieve what we want/need. That said, adults are rarely good at knowing or figuring out what they need, although they often tend to be super opinionated about what they think they need and what they know :really: In my experience of 10’s of thousands of hours teaching people physical athletic skills, most adults quit trying different variations too soon, then tend to lock into a movement or position or idea of how something should be long before they’ve optimized the physicality of what they are attempting. Kids OTH will tend to keep experimenting, adapting and improving for much longer. I had to keep telling myself this over and over while trying to figure how how the :swear: to make some version of piper’s grip work for me.


Top
 Profile  
Reply with quote  
Display posts from previous:  Sort by  
Post new topic Reply to topic  [ 28 posts ]  Go to page Previous  1, 2

All times are UTC - 6 hours


Who is online

Users browsing this forum: sjpete and 4 guests


You cannot post new topics in this forum
You cannot reply to topics in this forum
You cannot edit your posts in this forum
You cannot delete your posts in this forum

Search for:
Jump to:  
Powered by phpBB® Forum Software © phpBB Group
[ Time : 0.397s | 12 Queries | GZIP : On ]
(dh)