It is currently Wed Nov 20, 2019 8:48 am

All times are UTC - 6 hours




Post new topic Reply to topic  [ 47 posts ]  Go to page Previous  1, 2, 3, 4  Next
Author Message
 
PostPosted: Tue Oct 22, 2019 9:03 pm 
Offline
User avatar

Joined: Thu Sep 13, 2012 1:15 pm
Posts: 376
Nanohedron wrote:
Doesn't ozone bleach the wood, Geoffrey?


Good question. I've never actually tried it, but I'd be surprised. It's not what I'd call corrosive in any way and I don't imagine that such a short exposure would harm the wood in any way. But I'd have to put it to the test.

_________________
Geoffrey Ellis Flutes


Top
 Profile  
Reply with quote  
 
PostPosted: Tue Oct 22, 2019 9:37 pm 
Offline
Moderatorer
User avatar

Joined: Wed Dec 18, 2002 6:00 pm
Posts: 34703
Location: Minneapolis
Geoffrey Ellis wrote:
Nanohedron wrote:
Doesn't ozone bleach the wood, Geoffrey?

Good question. I've never actually tried it, but I'd be surprised. It's not what I'd call corrosive in any way and I don't imagine that such a short exposure would harm the wood in any way. But I'd have to put it to the test.

The reason I ask is that on a sneaking suspicion, I Googled "does ozone bleach wood?", and found that some paper mills are indeed using ozone to bleach pulp. Still, the difference between pulp and solid wood might matter, and also the type of wood as well. I agree that a test is called for if you can spare the material.

_________________
"Time is the wisest counselor of all." - Pericles

"I remain not entirely convinced of it." - Nano


Top
 Profile  
Reply with quote  
 
PostPosted: Tue Oct 22, 2019 11:15 pm 
Offline
User avatar

Joined: Sun Sep 13, 2009 10:06 pm
Posts: 1490
Location: just outside Xanadu
Ozone is extremely corrosive. It readily and energetically 'donates' its extra oxygen atom to any reactive substrate with which it comes into contact. This is essentially the text book definition for 'bleaching'. From my years of mushroom culture, I know several classes of fungi that specialize in using oxygenase enzymes to breakdown and 'digest' the lignin in wood. One, the Black Poplar mushroom (Agrocybe Aegerita) is found in tropical settings growing on Rosewoods.
Oxygen is an extremely effective antiseptic and disinfectant, but I would point out you are much better off using dilute solutions of hydrogen peroxide rather than straight ozone on woods. You can readily control the concentration of oxygen in any application. You can control the length of time of exposure. And you can easily achieve effective disinfection with successive cycles of application and drying.

Bob

_________________
Not everything you can count, counts. And not everything that counts, can be counted

The Expert's Mind has few possibilities.
The Beginner's mind has endless possibilities.
Shunryu Suzuki, Roshi


Top
 Profile  
Reply with quote  
 
PostPosted: Wed Oct 23, 2019 4:04 am 
Offline

Joined: Mon Nov 02, 2015 3:50 pm
Posts: 337
Fildafluter - Most pathogenic organisms can only survive for a limited time outside of their host. Protozoa and parasites are an exception, as they often have a life cycle which has a significant stage in stagnant water. Their pathway into a host usually relies on coming into direct contact with said water, or by being bitten by a vector (insect) which contains it. So, unless you dredged your latest old wooden flute out of some black lagoon, these organisms can be ruled out. Pathogenic bacteria, (the prime source of infection from touching a contaminated object) again are happiest in their hosts, where it is an ideal 37 degrees C. for replication and log phase growth. Outside of the host, there are two environments in which bacteria can survive; a reservoir, where conditions are good enough for the bacteria to replicate, or a fomite, where the organism can survive, but not replicate. An old flute, which hasn't seen use for decades, is without doubt a fomite, as there is nothing that the organisms in question can feed on, and the environment is largely hostile to such organisms. On average, the vast majority of these organisms can survive in a fomite for no more than a few weeks. An exception to this rule would be spores of fungi such as Aspergillus which can survive and remain viable for up to 30 years. We all breath in a handful of Aspergillus spores each day, but fungal respiratory infections nearly only take hold in the immuno-compromised. So, it is highly unlikely that you'll catch a life threatening condition from playing an old wooden flute.

In regards to catching recent strains of Tuberculosis, you only need to be in the same room as an infected individual. Mycobacterium tuberculosis has a cellular doubling rate of approximately once every 24 hours, making it one of the slowest to replicate. It can therefore be managed if medical treatment is sought early.


Top
 Profile  
Reply with quote  
 
PostPosted: Wed Oct 23, 2019 4:30 am 
Offline
User avatar

Joined: Tue May 23, 2006 6:47 am
Posts: 6842
Location: N.E. Wales, G.B.
Strewth.
In general my reaction is, why bother?

One thing to bear in mind is that folk, seemingly Americans especially, seem to think anything green must be mould. In fact, on old flutes with metal parts containing copper, it's usually verdigris. That is actually inimical to microbes, but it will leach through other deposits such as oil and grease and stain them. Green gunk on old flutes is common, needs to be cleaned away for sure, but is scarcely a significant health hazard. Black mould in the bores of unlined boxwood might be more of a concern, but although I am aware of it I've little experience of that.

Amongst all the several hundred old flutes I've handled, mostly cocuswood, virtually none have been mouldy. I suspect the tropical hardwoods are also fairly resistant/inimical to microbes too. I think in general flutes are pretty low risk in terms of contact transfer of bacterial or viral infections. Sure, if you're holding a flute petting zoo, a quick medical wipe of the lip contact area on the headjoint between players is a good idea, and immediately swapping flutes with someone with cold sores or a facial skin infection wouldn't be wise, but you simply aren't going to catch a cold by playing a flute which was played by someone else with a cold last week.... unless they had anthrax or ebola, don't worry about it! Too much paranoid fuss IMO.

_________________
I respect people's privilege to hold their beliefs, whatever those may be (within reason), but respect the beliefs themselves? You gotta be kidding!

My YouTube channel
My FB photo albums
Low Bb flute: 2 reels (audio)
Flute & Music Resources - helpsheet downloads


Top
 Profile  
Reply with quote  
 
PostPosted: Wed Oct 23, 2019 8:38 am 
Offline
User avatar

Joined: Thu Sep 13, 2012 1:15 pm
Posts: 376
an seanduine wrote:
Ozone is extremely corrosive. It readily and energetically 'donates' its extra oxygen atom to any reactive substrate with which it comes into contact. This is essentially the text book definition for 'bleaching'. From my years of mushroom culture, I know several classes of fungi that specialize in using oxygenase enzymes to breakdown and 'digest' the lignin in wood. One, the Black Poplar mushroom (Agrocybe Aegerita) is found in tropical settings growing on Rosewoods.
Oxygen is an extremely effective antiseptic and disinfectant, but I would point out you are much better off using dilute solutions of hydrogen peroxide rather than straight ozone on woods. You can readily control the concentration of oxygen in any application. You can control the length of time of exposure. And you can easily achieve effective disinfection with successive cycles of application and drying.

Bob


Very interesting. My experiences with ozone are confined to medical ozone (pure O3 with no nitrogen) that I've used internally and externally. I suppose that because I've never found them to be corrosive to my flesh I just assumed they wouldn't do serious harm to wood!

_________________
Geoffrey Ellis Flutes


Top
 Profile  
Reply with quote  
 
PostPosted: Wed Oct 23, 2019 12:36 pm 
Offline
Moderatorer
User avatar

Joined: Wed Dec 18, 2002 6:00 pm
Posts: 34703
Location: Minneapolis
Geoffrey Ellis wrote:
I suppose that because I've never found them to be corrosive to my flesh I just assumed they wouldn't do serious harm to wood!

One is led to imagine a more ghoulish paradigm shift in flute material.

_________________
"Time is the wisest counselor of all." - Pericles

"I remain not entirely convinced of it." - Nano


Top
 Profile  
Reply with quote  
 
PostPosted: Wed Oct 23, 2019 12:39 pm 
Offline
User avatar

Joined: Thu Sep 13, 2012 1:15 pm
Posts: 376
Nanohedron wrote:
Geoffrey Ellis wrote:
I suppose that because I've never found them to be corrosive to my flesh I just assumed they wouldn't do serious harm to wood!

One is led to imagine a more ghoulish paradigm shift in flute material.


Exactly. Flutes made from dried meats? Hmmm....

_________________
Geoffrey Ellis Flutes


Top
 Profile  
Reply with quote  
 
PostPosted: Wed Oct 23, 2019 12:44 pm 
Offline
Moderatorer
User avatar

Joined: Wed Dec 18, 2002 6:00 pm
Posts: 34703
Location: Minneapolis
Geoffrey Ellis wrote:
Hmmm....

Or Yummm, depending.

_________________
"Time is the wisest counselor of all." - Pericles

"I remain not entirely convinced of it." - Nano


Top
 Profile  
Reply with quote  
 
PostPosted: Wed Oct 23, 2019 12:52 pm 
Offline

Joined: Wed Sep 11, 2019 9:47 pm
Posts: 58
Bone is of course the traditional material: http://andyletke.com/boneflute.html


Top
 Profile  
Reply with quote  
 
PostPosted: Wed Oct 23, 2019 3:02 pm 
Offline
Moderatorer
User avatar

Joined: Wed Dec 18, 2002 6:00 pm
Posts: 34703
Location: Minneapolis
jemtheflute wrote:
...folk, seemingly Americans especially, seem to think anything green must be mould.

Well, I'm not convinced that it has anything to do with my nationality, but I admit that whenever I see someone with greenish-dyed hair, mold's the first thing that comes to mind.

_________________
"Time is the wisest counselor of all." - Pericles

"I remain not entirely convinced of it." - Nano


Top
 Profile  
Reply with quote  
 
PostPosted: Wed Oct 23, 2019 10:37 pm 
Offline
Moderatorer
User avatar

Joined: Wed Dec 18, 2002 6:00 pm
Posts: 34703
Location: Minneapolis
Fildafluter wrote:
Who is John Skelton?

Assuming that isn't a rhetorical question, here's yer man:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Kr-qOnu1M-4


Fildafluter wrote:
Mention of which isn't the yoke who runs our competitor ITM chatzine ...

Let us not make adversaries out of nothing. The Session is a neighbor worthy of our good will; Chiffers also happen to be members there, and I pop on over myself from time to time to grab a tune or two. C&F and The Session each fill particular niches, so I see the two more as wheels on the same vehicle.

That said, there's no helping the fact that you just can't please everyone.

_________________
"Time is the wisest counselor of all." - Pericles

"I remain not entirely convinced of it." - Nano


Top
 Profile  
Reply with quote  
 
PostPosted: Thu Oct 24, 2019 6:07 am 
Offline
User avatar

Joined: Mon Dec 29, 2003 1:21 am
Posts: 1400
Location: Behind the anthracite and shale curtain.
Wind instruments are the Mysophobe’s bane.

_________________
Information is not knowledge.
Knowledge is not wisdom.
Wisdom is not truth.
Truth is not beauty. Beauty is not love.
Love is not music. Music is the best.
- Frank Zappa


Top
 Profile  
Reply with quote  
 
PostPosted: Thu Oct 24, 2019 10:08 am 
Offline
Moderatorer
User avatar

Joined: Wed Dec 18, 2002 6:00 pm
Posts: 34703
Location: Minneapolis
oleorezinator wrote:
Wind instruments are the Mysophobe’s bane.

No doubt. And unlike me, who has a case of Myso-can't-be-arsed.

_________________
"Time is the wisest counselor of all." - Pericles

"I remain not entirely convinced of it." - Nano


Top
 Profile  
Reply with quote  
 
PostPosted: Thu Oct 24, 2019 4:32 pm 
Offline
User avatar

Joined: Mon Dec 29, 2003 1:21 am
Posts: 1400
Location: Behind the anthracite and shale curtain.
Nanohedron wrote:
oleorezinator wrote:
Wind instruments are the Mysophobe’s bane.

No doubt. And unlike me, who has a case of Myso-can't-be-arsed.

:lol: :lol: :lol:

_________________
Information is not knowledge.
Knowledge is not wisdom.
Wisdom is not truth.
Truth is not beauty. Beauty is not love.
Love is not music. Music is the best.
- Frank Zappa


Top
 Profile  
Reply with quote  
Display posts from previous:  Sort by  
Post new topic Reply to topic  [ 47 posts ]  Go to page Previous  1, 2, 3, 4  Next

All times are UTC - 6 hours


Who is online

Users browsing this forum: Google and 43 guests


You cannot post new topics in this forum
You cannot reply to topics in this forum
You cannot edit your posts in this forum
You cannot delete your posts in this forum

Search for:
Jump to:  
Powered by phpBB® Forum Software © phpBB Group
[ Time : 0.167s | 12 Queries | GZIP : On ]
(dh)