It is currently Tue Dec 10, 2019 11:12 am

All times are UTC - 6 hours




Post new topic Reply to topic  [ 31 posts ]  Go to page 1, 2, 3  Next
Author Message
 
PostPosted: Sun Sep 01, 2019 3:17 am 
Offline

Joined: Thu Jul 25, 2002 6:00 pm
Posts: 2754
Location: Sweden
Rudall & Rose 4322 is up for auction in G&H's music instrument auction the 13th of September. Looks to be in very good condition, but the end cap certainly looks to be a replacement.
https://bid.gardinerhoulgate.co.uk/m/lo ... tured%3Dno


Top
 Profile  
Reply with quote  
 
PostPosted: Mon Sep 02, 2019 3:51 am 
Offline

Joined: Mon Nov 02, 2015 3:50 pm
Posts: 339
An excellent looking Rudall, quite a find.

The tone holes on it seem to be absolutely enormous, suggesting it could be a powerful instrument. The replacement crown, although the wrong profile, is a good colour match with the rest of the flute. Steampacket, do you think the overall colour of the flute is unusually dark for a Boxwood Rudall? Perhaps the lighting is exaggerating the colour, but the few Boxwood Rudalls I've seen have been quite a bit lighter than this one..........


Top
 Profile  
Reply with quote  
 
PostPosted: Tue Sep 03, 2019 3:28 am 
Offline

Joined: Thu Jul 25, 2002 6:00 pm
Posts: 2754
Location: Sweden
Quote:
Steampacket, do you think the overall colour of the flute is unusually dark for a Boxwood Rudall? Uniflute


Yes the only one I've seen live and handled, owned by a lady from the North (she has two boxwood Rudalls), was much lighter in colour. Prehaps this one up for auction has been a closet queen sleeping in it's fine case? I wonder what happened to the original end cap, and who has put the flute up for auction?


Top
 Profile  
Reply with quote  
 
PostPosted: Tue Sep 03, 2019 8:49 am 
Offline
User avatar

Joined: Mon Jul 29, 2002 6:00 pm
Posts: 4085
Location: Los Angeles
Steampacket wrote:
Prehaps (sic) this one up for auction has been a closet queen sleeping in it's fine case? I wonder what happened to the original end cap, and who has put the flute up for auction?

No closet queen, this. It's well worn, & showing quite a lot of nicks, dents, etc., like it's been in a fight, possibly because boxwood is relatively soft. Some separation or near separation of a couple of blocks. I'm also not sure all the springs are original or mounted correctly. Good condition overall, but not a beauty.

I was told all sections EXCEPT the headjoint (no real surprise) are stamped. The headjoint seems to be a good match for the appearance of the other sections, and may be original, except for the end cap.

The flute has been recently oiled, including the exterior it seems, which might contribute to a darker & mottled appearance.

_________________
International Traditional Music Society, Inc.
A non-profit 501c3 charity/educational public benefit corporation
Wooden Flute Obsession CDs (3 volumes, 6 discs, 7 hours, 120 players/tracks)
http://www.worldtrad.org


Top
 Profile  
Reply with quote  
 
PostPosted: Tue Sep 03, 2019 9:04 am 
Offline

Joined: Sat Jun 30, 2001 6:00 pm
Posts: 16843
Possibly the boxwood is stained?


Top
 Profile  
Reply with quote  
 
PostPosted: Tue Sep 03, 2019 9:13 am 
Offline
User avatar

Joined: Mon Jul 29, 2002 6:00 pm
Posts: 4085
Location: Los Angeles
jim stone wrote:
Possibly the boxwood is stained?

Usually it is. One technique was nitric acid fuming. The results are more even than we see here. I think what happened in this instance is handling dirt & wear, and uneven absorption of oil into the harder/softer areas of grain.

_________________
International Traditional Music Society, Inc.
A non-profit 501c3 charity/educational public benefit corporation
Wooden Flute Obsession CDs (3 volumes, 6 discs, 7 hours, 120 players/tracks)
http://www.worldtrad.org


Top
 Profile  
Reply with quote  
 
PostPosted: Tue Sep 03, 2019 9:48 am 
Offline

Joined: Thu Jul 25, 2002 6:00 pm
Posts: 2754
Location: Sweden
Yes, a short F# key block and a Eb key block have been repaired. New pads, and cork dampers to protect the flute body from the touches. G&H said the flute has been oiled recently which explains the hue.


Top
 Profile  
Reply with quote  
 
PostPosted: Fri Sep 06, 2019 12:24 am 
Offline
Moderator
User avatar

Joined: Wed Jan 14, 2009 5:21 pm
Posts: 12609
Location: Unimportant island off the great mainland of Europe
Uni Flute wrote:
The replacement crown

Sorry if this is me being stupid - it probably is - but how do you know that it's a replacement crown?

_________________
"Only connect!"

https://youtu.be/ezbWVysJAOY
https://tapm.bandcamp.com/


Top
 Profile  
Reply with quote  
 
PostPosted: Fri Sep 06, 2019 2:48 am 
Offline
User avatar

Joined: Mon Jul 29, 2002 6:00 pm
Posts: 4085
Location: Los Angeles
benhall.1 wrote:
Uni Flute wrote:
The replacement crown

Sorry if this is me being stupid - it probably is - but how do you know that it's a replacement crown?

Dome shape is not usual for a Rudall. Unless a patent head or engine-turned silver, they're usually a low cylinder, often with a threaded center tuning screw with a turned bead.

You can see the basic shape in this photo:
Image

_________________
International Traditional Music Society, Inc.
A non-profit 501c3 charity/educational public benefit corporation
Wooden Flute Obsession CDs (3 volumes, 6 discs, 7 hours, 120 players/tracks)
http://www.worldtrad.org


Top
 Profile  
Reply with quote  
 
PostPosted: Fri Sep 06, 2019 2:51 am 
Offline

Joined: Thu Jul 25, 2002 6:00 pm
Posts: 2754
Location: Sweden
Quote:
but how do you know that it's a replacement crown? benhall


Rudall & Rose simple system flutes from this period, apart from those with a patent head joint or with an ivory crown, had a straight sided, flat topped, wooden crown with a threaded wooden cork adjuster. The cork adjuster's wooden indicator can be seen in the middle of the crown. Can be clearly seen in these photos on Larry Mallette's site:
https://www.larrymallette.com/historica ... XIbYi3M1Z0

The rounded, dome shaped wooden crown appears on Rudall's wooden boehm system flutes


Top
 Profile  
Reply with quote  
 
PostPosted: Fri Sep 06, 2019 3:54 am 
Offline
Moderator
User avatar

Joined: Wed Jan 14, 2009 5:21 pm
Posts: 12609
Location: Unimportant island off the great mainland of Europe
Steampacket wrote:
Quote:
but how do you know that it's a replacement crown? benhall


Rudall & Rose simple system flutes from this period, apart from those with a patent head joint or with an ivory crown, had a straight sided, flat topped, wooden crown with a threaded wooden cork adjuster. The cork adjuster's wooden indicator can be seen in the middle of the crown. Can be clearly seen in these photos on Larry Mallette's site:
https://www.larrymallette.com/historica ... XIbYi3M1Z0

The rounded, dome shaped wooden crown appears on Rudall's wooden boehm system flutes

Yes, all of that lot I know. And the stuff in Kevin's post above. I was thinking, however, do we know that they definitely didn't make a rounded crown for some simple system flutes? Maybe this was one of them ... I've seen some odd variations in R&R flute shapes ...

_________________
"Only connect!"

https://youtu.be/ezbWVysJAOY
https://tapm.bandcamp.com/


Top
 Profile  
Reply with quote  
 
PostPosted: Fri Sep 06, 2019 4:38 am 
Offline

Joined: Thu Jul 25, 2002 6:00 pm
Posts: 2754
Location: Sweden
Quote:
I was thinking, however, do we know that they definitely didn't make a rounded crown for some simple system flutes? Maybe this was one of them ... I've seen some odd variations in R&R flute shapes ... benhall


I doubt it. The flute has been repaired, repadded, tenons rethreaded, rather crudely I think. So I bet whoever did this put in a new cork and probably a boxwood crown they had available. I've never seen a rounded wooden crown on a R&R simple system flute. Anything's possible of course. A special order?


Top
 Profile  
Reply with quote  
 
PostPosted: Fri Sep 06, 2019 6:00 am 
Offline

Joined: Mon Nov 02, 2015 3:50 pm
Posts: 339
Regarding the crown, as others have said, it is highly likely to be a replacement/later addition. When you look at flutes by Rudall & Rose's apprentices, and other high end 8 key flutes built in the style, such as those marked H. Fentum or George & Mamby, they nearly always have the same style of crown as well. It would be interesting to take a closer look at the thread in the crown leading to the ball end indicator, as I believe this feature is consistent on Rudall & Rose's instruments, and it could be used to support the alternative theory of a special order. If someone wanted to custom order a domed crown from Rudall & Rose for aesthetic reasons, there would be no reason to change the thread the cork moves upon. If the thread from the crown from this Boxwood flute could be compared to one from a Rudall with a standard flat cylinder crown, then we may come closer to getting our answer. :)


Top
 Profile  
Reply with quote  
 
PostPosted: Fri Sep 06, 2019 6:59 am 
Offline
User avatar

Joined: Mon Jul 29, 2002 6:00 pm
Posts: 4085
Location: Los Angeles
Uni Flute wrote:
Regarding the crown, as others have said, it is highly likely to be a replacement/later addition. When you look at flutes by Rudall & Rose's apprentices, and other high end 8 key flutes built in the style, such as those marked H. Fentum or George & Mamby, they nearly always have the same style of crown as well. It would be interesting to take a closer look at the thread in the crown leading to the ball end indicator, as I believe this feature is consistent on Rudall & Rose's instruments, and it could be used to support the alternative theory of a special order. If someone wanted to custom order a domed crown from Rudall & Rose for aesthetic reasons, there would be no reason to change the thread the cork moves upon. If the thread from the crown from this Boxwood flute could be compared to one from a Rudall with a standard flat cylinder crown, then we may come closer to getting our answer. :)

I don't see any indication in any of the photos I received of this boxwood Rudall that it even HAS a threaded cork adjuster. No end on photo, but nothing seems to be protruding. That shape crown rarely has a hole in it for an adjuster to pass through. Boehm crowns on silver flutes have an internal threaded receiver that fits a threaded shaft holding the cork, with some limited adjustment (before it bottoms out on the insert in the crown).

_________________
International Traditional Music Society, Inc.
A non-profit 501c3 charity/educational public benefit corporation
Wooden Flute Obsession CDs (3 volumes, 6 discs, 7 hours, 120 players/tracks)
http://www.worldtrad.org


Top
 Profile  
Reply with quote  
 
PostPosted: Fri Sep 06, 2019 8:19 am 
Offline

Joined: Mon Nov 02, 2015 3:50 pm
Posts: 339
kkrell wrote:
Uni Flute wrote:
Regarding the crown, as others have said, it is highly likely to be a replacement/later addition. When you look at flutes by Rudall & Rose's apprentices, and other high end 8 key flutes built in the style, such as those marked H. Fentum or George & Mamby, they nearly always have the same style of crown as well. It would be interesting to take a closer look at the thread in the crown leading to the ball end indicator, as I believe this feature is consistent on Rudall & Rose's instruments, and it could be used to support the alternative theory of a special order. If someone wanted to custom order a domed crown from Rudall & Rose for aesthetic reasons, there would be no reason to change the thread the cork moves upon. If the thread from the crown from this Boxwood flute could be compared to one from a Rudall with a standard flat cylinder crown, then we may come closer to getting our answer. :)

I don't see any indication in any of the photos I received of this boxwood Rudall that it even HAS a threaded cork adjuster. No end on photo, but nothing seems to be protruding. That shape crown rarely has a hole in it for an adjuster to pass through. Boehm crowns on silver flutes have an internal threaded receiver that fits a threaded shaft holding the cork, with some limited adjustment (before it bottoms out on the insert in the crown).


And when these domed crowns do have an external finial, they can often be in metal, rather than wood.


Top
 Profile  
Reply with quote  
Display posts from previous:  Sort by  
Post new topic Reply to topic  [ 31 posts ]  Go to page 1, 2, 3  Next

All times are UTC - 6 hours


Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 5 guests


You cannot post new topics in this forum
You cannot reply to topics in this forum
You cannot edit your posts in this forum
You cannot delete your posts in this forum

Search for:
Jump to:  
Powered by phpBB® Forum Software © phpBB Group
[ Time : 0.126s | 13 Queries | GZIP : On ]
(dh)