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PostPosted: Thu Aug 08, 2019 9:34 am 
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Hi, I just saw a post on thesession.org made by a music shop, advertising his/her flutes:

http://www.muzikhausberlin.de/flote.html
https://thesession.org/discussions/43868?

Does someone know anything about them? The prices are remarkable low and the product information is a bit odd


Last edited by ertwert on Thu Aug 08, 2019 9:50 am, edited 1 time in total.

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PostPosted: Thu Aug 08, 2019 9:49 am 
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I would be somewhat cautious about the origin of these flutes. A quick read through the text includes the statement, "This Irish Flute comes from the South American nation..."

Either poor research or a very odd typo.

Best wishes.

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PostPosted: Thu Aug 08, 2019 9:53 am 
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This is what I wrote in answer to the poster on thesession.org, in response to someone inquiring about "a good flute."

The German shop mentioned sells flutes made in Pakistan. Doesn't mean that Pakistan-made are bad flutes -- but I haven't ever played one that I thought worth owning, even at $100.

I don't know about the flutes offered by McNeella. I wouldn't buy one without asking around and having a clear return.refund policy from them.

http://www.irishflutestore.com is owned by an excellent fluter himself, and you can trust him. You might pay a bit more but it would be worth it to get a good flute. Both Solen Lesouef and Martin Doyle make great flutes. I would not hesitate to buy a flute from either of them.

Anybody seriously interested in buying a flute should go to http://www.chiffandfipple.com and see what's on offer at the Used Instrument Exchange part of the site. But don't ask for recommendations or you'll get a bunch of meaningless comments from people who have been playing for a year or two and who don't know the difference between a really good flute and one that will make a noise.

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PostPosted: Thu Aug 08, 2019 11:46 am 
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Julia Delaney wrote:
This is what I wrote in answer to the poster on thesession.org, in response to someone inquiring about "a good flute."

The German shop mentioned sells flutes made in Pakistan. Doesn't mean that Pakistan-made are bad flutes -- but I haven't ever played one that I thought worth owning, even at $100.

I don't know about the flutes offered by McNeella. I wouldn't buy one without asking around and having a clear return.refund policy from them.

http://www.irishflutestore.com is owned by an excellent fluter himself, and you can trust him. You might pay a bit more but it would be worth it to get a good flute. Both Solen Lesouef and Martin Doyle make great flutes. I would not hesitate to buy a flute from either of them.

Anybody seriously interested in buying a flute should go to http://www.chiffandfipple.com and see what's on offer at the Used Instrument Exchange part of the site. But don't ask for recommendations or you'll get a bunch of meaningless comments from people who have been playing for a year or two and who don't know the difference between a really good flute and one that will make a noise.



Ah TheSession.org, where smug goes to parade


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PostPosted: Thu Aug 08, 2019 2:53 pm 
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PB+J wrote:
Ah TheSession.org, where smug goes to parade

Now, now. Let's take the high road and maintain at least a façade of cordial relations. I'll bet that like me, you've gone there to nick tunes. :poke:

Julia Delaney wrote:
But don't ask for recommendations or you'll get a bunch of meaningless comments from people who have been playing for a year or two and who don't know the difference between a really good flute and one that will make a noise.

Oh, I don't know. There are perfectly knowledgeable people here who are ready and willing to cut through the blather. Perhaps yourself, for example.

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PostPosted: Thu Aug 08, 2019 2:58 pm 
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I just came here to post, essentially in warning about the flutes on sale at muzikhaus ...

... but Julia Delaney has said it all, and I have nothing to add.

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PostPosted: Thu Aug 08, 2019 3:09 pm 
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Julia Delaney wrote:
I don't know about the flutes offered by McNeella. I wouldn't buy one without asking around and having a clear return.refund policy from them.

You commented on them a while ago. Having just looked at the flutes on their site, I'd say you were right then, and I'd agree with your assessment now - they're not cocus, and they probably are Pakistani in origin - and, personally, I'd rather get something, at whatever price, from someone whose work is respected, and is a known maker. There are some affordable flutes made by such people.

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PostPosted: Thu Aug 08, 2019 3:29 pm 
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benhall.1 wrote:
... they're not cocus ...

A very reasonable conclusion, but is it possible we're looking at cocus sapwood rather than heartwood? It could account for both the price and the claim. It would be good to have a maker's input about this.

Just had another look at Muzikhaus, and their "Irish"-style flutes don't impress me at first glance. No idea how they play, but to me mismatched woods are a warning sign that quality is going to be a gamble at best. I recognize a number of their harps as being made by Mid-East Manufacturing, so I'm willing to guess that their flutes are, too.

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PostPosted: Thu Aug 08, 2019 11:42 pm 
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Nanohedron wrote:
benhall.1 wrote:
... they're not cocus ...

A very reasonable conclusion, but is it possible we're looking at cocus sapwood rather than heartwood? It could account for both the price and the claim. It would be good to have a maker's input about this.

If they are indeed made in Pakistan, then I would have thought it's safe to say it's not any sort of cocuswood. Also, I've seen a fair few pieces of cocuswood. I've yet to see a pale yellow piece of cocuswood.

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PostPosted: Fri Aug 09, 2019 12:55 pm 
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benhall.1 wrote:
I've yet to see a pale yellow piece of cocuswood.

Right, because the chocolaty-colored heartwood is the industry standard for wind instruments made of cocus, and that's what the knowledgeable musician would expect to see when that name is used. To us, "cocus" is synonymous with the heartwood. But what I'm wondering is whether these people are instead using cocus sapwood discards - someone else's, probably - and calling it "cocus" on the sheer technicality of it. While the wood in question could indeed really be anything, cocus sapwood is also yellowish like that. If it is the case that they're using cocus sapwood, I wouldn't deceive myself that it makes things any better; it would still be a bait-and-switch, but it's a slick one.

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PostPosted: Fri Aug 09, 2019 3:10 pm 
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I was always led to believe the Pakistani flutes were made from the sapwood of Sheesham, or Shissam wood. A form of Rosewood. However, the sapwood is not expensive nor durable. Shissam is sometimes called cocoa wood.

Bob

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PostPosted: Fri Aug 09, 2019 3:22 pm 
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an seanduine wrote:
I was always led to believe the Pakistani flutes were made from the sapwood of Sheesham, or Shissam wood.

I had two Pakistani flutes (it was a callower time), and both were of blackwood, so they must actually use a variety of woods depending on whatever factors.

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PostPosted: Fri Aug 09, 2019 5:09 pm 
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It seems unlikely that a flute could be made just of sapwood, as that normally only forms a relatively thin layer just under the bark and encasing the heartwood. I don't think I've ever seen sapwood layer thick enough to make a whole flute from. I have seen (and made) flutes with a flash of sapwood, which can be quite striking. But it's the dense core of the tree - the heartwood - we need.

My understanding is that the modern Pakistani flutes are made from Sheesham (Shisham), "North Indian Rosewood" (as opposed to Indian Rosewood, a finer timber). It is significantly lighter in density when compared to our timbers - around 0.75, which puts it more into the "hard furniture timber" class than "woodwind instrument" class. By comparison boxwood is around 0.95 - 1.0, Blackwood, Mopane and Australian Gidgee can be 1.2 - 1.3, and Delrin 1.4. A lighter timber seems to make a lighter-toned flute, sweet but not commanding, probably through a combination of less stiffness & more surface roughness. I don't know if the Pakistani companies bulk the timber chemically to offset this.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dalbergia_sissoo


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PostPosted: Fri Aug 09, 2019 5:44 pm 
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Terry McGee wrote:
It seems unlikely that a flute could be made just of sapwood, as that normally only forms a relatively thin layer just under the bark and encasing the heartwood. I don't think I've ever seen sapwood layer thick enough to make a whole flute from.

A quick Googling of cocus log images confirms this, so I'd say that settles it. But it's good to know for certain that we're looking at plain, old-fashioned 100% false advertising, pure and simple.

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PostPosted: Fri Aug 09, 2019 7:26 pm 
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Here's the kind of thing that led me to think that there's still some Cocus out there being sold as sapwood, based on the color:

https://dulcimershofar.com/irish-flute-cocus.html

Image

Maybe it's a different wood, and just using the Cocus name?


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