Keyless c# trill for g tune?

[keithsandra]

I'm learning a classical aria. Though I can trill on high C# on my keyless flutes I can't on the cnats. I see Böehm players get a special trill key so what about us? How do we trill cnats? Maybe we don't have many calls for trills on ITM?

Your advice and comments would be appreciated.

Best wishes,

Keith.

[jim stone]

I think the c natural thumb hole is helpful in this regard.

[keithsandra]

Thanks Jim. How do you produce a trill on that arrangement?

Best wishes, Keith.

[jim stone]

Sorry, I may not have a clear idea of the notes involved in a trill.
Anyhow, I play Cnat with the index down and the thumb up (off the hole).
I rapidly close, open, close the thumb hole. I don't actually do this trill much on
the flute, and I would have to practice to get my thumb up to speed, but it's
a damn site quicker than keyless without the thumb hole.

[benhall.1]

I'm learning a classical aria. Though I can trill on high C# on my keyless flutes I can't on the cnats. I see Böehm players get a special trill key so what about us? How do we trill cnats? Maybe we don't have many calls for trills on ITM?

Your advice and comments would be appreciated.

Best wishes,

Keith.

I haven't got a keyless flute with me to try, but would it work if you played the high Cnat with just the left index finger and then trilled with the next finger down? It might require a bit of lip work, too ...

[EDITED TO ADD: NB, this is not right. I meant, play the Cnat with the second finger ...]

[ChrisCracknell]

Trill up with a thumb hole would be raising and lowering the index finger with the thumb up. Trill Down would be leaving the index finger on and trilling with the thumb. Both work, though my thumb is a bit slow when I try this.

This works though the tuning of the c# with both thumb and index finger up may need some attention, though for me, this is the better in tune c# anyway. Does depend on what c# everyone else is playing though...

These should be possible with a C key too. Hold C Key open and trill index finger or hold index finger and trill the key. Someone with one would have to answer as to whether this actually works.

[jemtheflute]

Fingering charts for baroque flutes may help - find some via the Fingering Charts Sticky thread.

If I'm understanding aright, you need a trill between C nat and D at the break between 2nd and 3rd registers? Assuming you're starting the trill on the upper note, D, finger high D as normal oxx ooo, then simply trill R1 &2 simultaneously (oxx xxo) for the C nat. It will be a little sharp, but should be acceptable.
If you need to start with the lower note, finger high C nat oxo xxx, switch to D oxx ooo and then trill as above. Or you could try the trill from the lower octave between C and D overblown - oxo xxx for C, trill L3. That should "work" but not very nicely.

For the high C# D trill, finger D oxx ooo and trill R1 (oxx xoo) for the C# - oxx xoo is actually the standard high C# fingering anyway. For the same trill an 8ve lower, alternate between C# and D oxx xxx by trilling L2 & 3.

[tstermitz]

What Jem said.

2nd register C-D is pretty easy: OXO XXX to OXX XXX

You can turn that into a roll, but not so easy: OXO XXX - OXX XXX - OXO XXX - XXO XXX - OXO XXX

C# roll is pretty easy: OOO XXX - OXX XXX - OOO XXX - XOO XXX - OOO XXX

[jemtheflute]

Just in case by any chance you're looking for a trill on B, B-C nat at the top of the middle register, try playing B xxo xxo (probably a bit flat of the true B, but not as flat as Bb) and trilling L1 or L2, (see which gets the better effect - probably but not necessarily L1). Or you can try alternating L1 and 2 while keeping R1 & 2 (or even +R3) on their holes, which also works at the top of the fundamental register.

Another possibility for the 2nd 8ve B-C trill is to finger the C xox xox (doesn't work on all flutes) and trill L3 and R1 together.

[ChrisCracknell]

Sorry, I only just saw that it is the upper c nat that you want to trill. My comments apply to the middle one. How you play the upper Cnat is flute dependant anyway and would decide your trill options. I would still do it with the thumbhole cnat on my flute and lip any notes into tune if I needed to.

[keithsandra]

Very helpful replies, as usual. Many thanks.

There's a lot to digest and try out, but in the meantime Benhall and Jem's advice to play the b and use the second finger of the left hand to trill, certainly produces what might be an acceptable answer, though I don't know the aria (Two Arias in Rondeau by Naudot in the book, Solos for Flute by Moyse) well enough yet to tell if this is what the composer had in mind.

(You Tube has the only videos I can find of the piece being played, by hesitant students).

Best wishes,

Keith.

[jemtheflute]

.... in the meantime Benhall and Jem's advice to play the b and use the second finger of the left hand to trill, certainly produces what might be an acceptable answer...

Um, Ben wrote that, I didn’t. It only gives an A-B trill.

Can you post an image of the passage?

[jemtheflute]

Right. A kind Böhm playing teacher friend has supplied me with photos of the Moyse/Naudot piece. There are plenty of Cnat-D trills and one or two C#-D ones. All are at the break between fundamental and middle registers, so far as I can see. None are up the octave. That makes things very easy. For C-D play C oxo xxx and trill L3 (this easy trill is why no special trill keys!). Or you could play Cnat as oxx ooo and trill all 3 R-hand fingers together. For the C#-D trill keep the three R-hand fingers on their holes, L1 off and trill L2+3 together.

Keithsandra, are you seriously playing the 2nd aria in G minor (2 flats) on keyless? Or are you just doing the G major 1st one and reprise?

[keithsandra]

So we keyless don't need a trill key, Jem. This is a real serendipity. Thank you. What a forum!

I shall be practicing all suggestions with enthusiasm. Thank you all.

So far as playing the second aria is concerned, I dropped that idea at first glimpse of those two flats ... (I'm not even much inspired by the first aria. It's melody line seems ploddingly predictable, though I could be wrong when I get more into it - those trills might give it a lift eventually ...).

Thanks again.

Keith.

[jemtheflute]

The trills are very short, with a written in grace note turn out of them. Naudot would indubitably have started the trills from above, on the D. Moyse might have started them on the C as you arrive on it from the preceding B. Whatever, even if the tempo is quite slow, they're very short trills - probably just 2 or at most 3 finger taps and then the turn.