It is currently Mon May 20, 2019 8:36 pm

All times are UTC - 6 hours




Post new topic Reply to topic  [ 14 posts ] 
Author Message
 
PostPosted: Wed Apr 03, 2019 2:01 pm 
Offline

Joined: Sun Aug 02, 2015 11:12 am
Posts: 56
Hello,

Apologies in advance, I know the CITES thing has been done to death... I've asked around and searched the forums, and all the info I'm finding seems to pertain to dealers or makers selling to individuals across international borders.

I'm wondering if anyone has successfully navigated the process of a private person-to-person sale of a finished instrument. Say I've got a blackwood flute for sale (I do) and I've got a prospective buyer in Ireland (also the case): everything seems to point to us both needing to get a CITES certificate from respective governments, pay the $75 (in the U.S.), and wait the 2-3 months for the one-time sale to be authorized, more or less as a dealer would.

Does this mean that private sales across international borders are effectively banned, barring a long and complicated approval process? I've found plenty of accounts of instruments being confiscated for failing to follow the proper procedure, but I haven't really seen many cases of success...


Top
 Profile  
Reply with quote  
 
PostPosted: Wed Apr 03, 2019 2:53 pm 
Offline

Joined: Sat Jun 30, 2001 6:00 pm
Posts: 16770
I believe we have all been proceeding on the idea that private sales are included.
I've never heard otherwise and prudence favors supposing so--barring info to the contrary.
There has been some talk on the board that the CITES regulations may be reviewed
before long to facilitate selling musical instruments, but nothing lately.


Top
 Profile  
Reply with quote  
 
PostPosted: Wed Apr 03, 2019 3:20 pm 
Offline
User avatar

Joined: Sat Aug 04, 2012 7:12 pm
Posts: 170
Location: Pacific Northwest USA
Apparently there is a CITES conference coming up in May that might relax the rules for musical instruments and parts, allowing shipping without the current documentation requirement. If that passes, it might not be until this Summer when it goes into effect.

Right now, the only safe way is to hand-carry as a personal instrument across borders, or go through the paperwork hassles on both ends if you ship it. You're taking a major risk if you just ship it without paperwork.

I think I have that right, but someone correct me if it's not.


Top
 Profile  
Reply with quote  
 
PostPosted: Wed Apr 03, 2019 4:32 pm 
Offline
User avatar

Joined: Mon Jul 29, 2002 6:00 pm
Posts: 3961
Location: Los Angeles
Conical bore wrote:
Apparently there is a CITES conference coming up in May that might relax the rules for musical instruments and parts, allowing shipping without the current documentation requirement. If that passes, it might not be until this Summer when it goes into effect.

Right now, the only safe way is to hand-carry as a personal instrument across borders, or go through the paperwork hassles on both ends if you ship it. You're taking a major risk if you just ship it without paperwork.

I think I have that right, but someone correct me if it's not.

That's it, in a nutshell.

_________________
International Traditional Music Society, Inc.
A non-profit 501c3 charity/educational public benefit corporation
Wooden Flute Obsession CDs (3 volumes, 6 discs, 7 hours, 120 players/tracks)
http://www.worldtrad.org


Top
 Profile  
Reply with quote  
 
PostPosted: Wed Apr 03, 2019 4:37 pm 
Offline
User avatar

Joined: Sat Jan 31, 2004 2:06 pm
Posts: 2513
Location: Dartmouth, Massachusetts, USA
Time for a road trip.....

Best wishes.

Steve

_________________
Alcohol is the liquid version of PhotoShop


Top
 Profile  
Reply with quote  
 
PostPosted: Fri Apr 05, 2019 5:05 am 
Offline

Joined: Thu Jan 02, 2003 6:00 pm
Posts: 124
Location: Toronto
When shipping a blackwood flute, why not just "mistakenly" label it as cocuswood (a non-restricted wood) on the customs form? In practice, what is the the probability that anyone down at customs really going going to check and challenge this? I suspect it is exceeding low. Maybe if you are shipping pallets of furniture wood on a regular basis. But the private shipment of a single flute can't possibly be that much of an enforcement priority.

Steve


Top
 Profile  
Reply with quote  
 
PostPosted: Fri Apr 05, 2019 5:37 am 
Offline
User avatar

Joined: Mon Jul 29, 2002 6:00 pm
Posts: 3961
Location: Los Angeles
SteveB wrote:
When shipping a blackwood flute, why not just "mistakenly" label it as cocuswood (a non-restricted wood) on the customs form? In practice, what is the the probability that anyone down at customs really going going to check and challenge this? I suspect it is exceeding low. Maybe if you are shipping pallets of furniture wood on a regular basis. But the private shipment of a single flute can't possibly be that much of an enforcement priority.

Steve

Yes, probably low probability. Just as it was low probability that someone would take a shoe b*mb on an airplane. Then, suddenly, nearly everyone was having to take their shoes off at security. Likely ruin it for those actually shipping true cocuswood instruments. Anyway, I wouldn't be risking confiscation & destruction of a $2-3k flute.

_________________
International Traditional Music Society, Inc.
A non-profit 501c3 charity/educational public benefit corporation
Wooden Flute Obsession CDs (3 volumes, 6 discs, 7 hours, 120 players/tracks)
http://www.worldtrad.org


Top
 Profile  
Reply with quote  
 
PostPosted: Fri Apr 05, 2019 9:33 am 
Offline
User avatar

Joined: Sat Aug 04, 2012 7:12 pm
Posts: 170
Location: Pacific Northwest USA
Cocus wood looks a lot like Rosewood (a listed species) to the untrained eye, and I'll bet most Customs inspectors don't have deep training in wood identification. There is some Cocus that isn't completely dark brown, but also shows some striations that almost look like Brazilian Rosewood. The C foot on my Cocus flute looks like that, the rest of the flute is solid dark brown.

This particular Cocus flute did survive being shipped into the USA from Europe last year without problems, when I bought it. But I still wouldn't risk labeling a listed wood species as Cocus to get around the regs. Not worth the risk, in my opinion.


Top
 Profile  
Reply with quote  
 
PostPosted: Fri Apr 05, 2019 10:47 am 
Offline
User avatar

Joined: Sun Nov 16, 2003 12:27 pm
Posts: 1368
Location: Kingston WA
Please do not mislabel it as Cocus and attempt to ship this without paperwork. You may still end up getting your flute confiscated. Also, its best to follow the rules. Otherwise, this may end up making things more difficult for everyone, including those of us who have to deal with this frequently.

Also, customs inspection is different than CITES inspections. At the local Seattle office the inspectors are all professional botanists and experts in wood/plant identification.

Casey

_________________
36+ Years as a Flute Maker!
Ergonomic Flutes for Small Hands since 1986
http://www.caseyburnsflutes.com
http://www.folkflutes.com


Top
 Profile  
Reply with quote  
 
PostPosted: Fri Apr 05, 2019 11:44 am 
Offline

Joined: Sat Jun 30, 2001 6:00 pm
Posts: 16770
Yes, in addition these rules have been created to protect vulnerable
species of wood. That doesn't mean they are as good as they should
be or that we cannot change them for the better. I think there is a lot
to be said for dealing with such situations honestly, even at the price
of my personal interest.


Top
 Profile  
Reply with quote  
 
PostPosted: Fri Apr 05, 2019 11:59 am 
Offline

Joined: Sun Aug 02, 2015 11:12 am
Posts: 56
Yes, I certainly wouldn't want to risk intentionally mislabeling it. There's ignorance of the rules and there's actively attempting to skirt them... I have a feeling that, in the latter case, the relevant authorities would give me far less consideration before chucking the instrument into the incinerator...

It's sounding increasingly in this case that the options for those in my situation are to 1) wait for CITES to change the rules, which could happen soon, or 2) wait until such time that you'll physically be in the destination country. Not that I'd be opposed to an Ad-Hoc trip to Ireland... just doesn't seem like the most economical form of shipping. :lol:


Top
 Profile  
Reply with quote  
 
PostPosted: Fri Apr 05, 2019 12:48 pm 
Offline

Joined: Thu Jan 02, 2003 6:00 pm
Posts: 124
Location: Toronto
All fair points. Was just musing out loud. At first blush, "creative customs labelling" struck me as a minor moral transgression and a remote risk of personal loss that I might be OK to live with. But if, as people have pointed out, it could cause problems for others, then I'll certainly steer clear and advise others to do the same.

Steve

NB: Thanks! Now you guys have me feeling guilty about my other past regulatory transgressions. When I think about all the contents tags I have ripped off pillows and the bottoms of sofas over the years.....!! :poke:


Top
 Profile  
Reply with quote  
 
PostPosted: Fri Apr 05, 2019 3:17 pm 
Offline

Joined: Sat Mar 15, 2003 8:06 pm
Posts: 252
in 2017 I had a concertina shipped from the UK to Chicagoland here in Illinois. In the old days that would be a direct flight from the UK to O'hare airport here in Chicago. With the Cites rules it spend two days in Memphis going through what was listed on my tracking information as Homeland Security. Perhaps it was flagged when xrayed with all the metal mechanisms inside, or perhaps they were checking the wood for Cites compliance as well. The maker said it was not uncommon for his instruments to be delivered in packaging that had been opened for inspection.


Top
 Profile  
Reply with quote  
 
PostPosted: Mon May 13, 2019 5:28 pm 
Offline

Joined: Sun May 12, 2019 3:26 pm
Posts: 5
I hope this is going out correctly, as it is my first post, but in 2018. I sent my lovely Terry McGee flute from US to Australia for a minor repair. I followed his instructions exactly and we paid several hundred dollars to insure it. When he received it, the box and case had been opened by customs and the tail piece and main section were put back in the case backwards. Several keys on the main body had been flattened and the Eb key on the tail piece was bent 90 degrees across the bore. It was a nightmare. Maybe everyone would know this, but if you are shipping, to whatever you can to make sure the **** who open it in customs have a photo in the case to show them how to replace the parts in the correct direction. From Alberta


Top
 Profile  
Reply with quote  
Display posts from previous:  Sort by  
Post new topic Reply to topic  [ 14 posts ] 

All times are UTC - 6 hours


Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 4 guests


You cannot post new topics in this forum
You cannot reply to topics in this forum
You cannot edit your posts in this forum
You cannot delete your posts in this forum

Search for:
Jump to:  
Powered by phpBB® Forum Software © phpBB Group
[ Time : 0.164s | 11 Queries | GZIP : On ]
(dh)