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PostPosted: Tue Feb 19, 2019 1:06 pm 
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I just noticed this Rudall & Rose flute for sale on eBay. It has an unusual barrel design, and a Bb foot.
Its not mine, unfortunately. I'm just bringing it to your attention.


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PostPosted: Tue Feb 19, 2019 2:26 pm 
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Very cool.

That foot looks heavy.....


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PostPosted: Tue Feb 19, 2019 2:39 pm 
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Would the shortened barrel help improve the balance?

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PostPosted: Tue Feb 19, 2019 3:28 pm 
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Nanohedron wrote:
Would the shortened barrel help improve the balance?


Sad to say I’ve never played one of those beasties, so I couldn’t say. Your guess is as good as mine.


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PostPosted: Tue Feb 19, 2019 4:28 pm 
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I wonder if the barrel design is that way to accommodate the placement of that keyed hole that is closest to the head.
Or at least to allow space for the makers mark and that keyed hole. It looks like it would be a tight fit with a conventional
barrel. Anyone know what that key is for?


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PostPosted: Tue Feb 19, 2019 4:34 pm 
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paddler wrote:
I wonder if the barrel design is that way to accommodate the placement of that keyed hole that is closest to the head.

Yeah, I looked again and realized that that was probably the reason for it.

paddler wrote:
Anyone know what that key is for?

Not in the slightest. Would that be a trill key? If so, it's the first I've ever seen on simple-system.

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PostPosted: Wed Feb 20, 2019 4:41 am 
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Not in the slightest. Would that be a trill key? If so, it's the first I've ever seen on simple-system. Nanohedron


Yes it's a high D-E trill key. All the known R&R flutes with this key have the reverse barrel with male tenon (Ref: Jem Hammond on the facebook Flute history channel February 18th, 2019)


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PostPosted: Wed Feb 20, 2019 5:19 am 
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Steampacket wrote:
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Not in the slightest. Would that be a trill key? If so, it's the first I've ever seen on simple-system. Nanohedron


Yes it's a high D-E trill key. All the known R&R flutes with this key have the reverse barrel with male tenon (Ref: Jem Hammond on the facebook Flute history channel February 18th, 2019)


Since everyone here might not wish to join the Facebook Group (if you do, then request at https://www.facebook.com/groups/Flute.History.Channel/ ) , I summarize with this:

Kevin Krell wrote:
I found reference in an old Rudall Rose list (digest #5) where David Migoya wrote:

"The male-tenon phenomena appears to fall into the 2600-3000 series of flutes, and likely is a design concept to accommodate the high-E key hole that requires the extra shoulder length."

& in a later post "The male-barrel (tenon rather than socket) seems to be a feature we see on the flutes with the high-E key. Likely (?) because of the extra wood needed that high, so the barrel is "shortened" to compensate. How to do that without breaking it? Make it work the opposite direction (a dandy idea first used by Monzani..."

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PostPosted: Wed Feb 20, 2019 10:10 am 
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Thanks, Steampacket and Kevin.

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PostPosted: Wed Feb 20, 2019 1:20 pm 
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I found reference in an old Rudall Rose list (digest #5) where David Migoya wrote: "The male-tenon phenomena appears to fall into the 2600-3000 series of flutes, and likely is a design concept to accommodate the high-E key hole that requires the extra shoulder length." Kkrell


This is indeed old information and not correct today, as the short barrel with male tenon and trill key/keys can also be found flutes as early as the one now on Ebay, R&R 1713/8, and as late as RR&C 6169.

Some other Rudall flutes with the short barrel with male tenon and trill key/keys:

R&R 1713/18
R&R 1959
R&R 2002
R&R 2005
R&R 2202
R&R 5353
R&R 5399
RR&C 6169


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PostPosted: Wed Feb 20, 2019 7:34 pm 
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Steampacket wrote:
Quote:
I found reference in an old Rudall Rose list (digest #5) where David Migoya wrote: "The male-tenon phenomena appears to fall into the 2600-3000 series of flutes, and likely is a design concept to accommodate the high-E key hole that requires the extra shoulder length." Kkrell


This is indeed old information and not correct today, as the short barrel with male tenon and trill key/keys can also be found flutes as early as the one now on Ebay, R&R 1713/8, and as late as RR&C 6169.

Some other Rudall flutes with the short barrel with male tenon and trill key/keys:

R&R 1713/18
R&R 1959
R&R 2002
R&R 2005
R&R 2202
R&R 5353
R&R 5399
RR&C 6169

Just to clarify, the info that has been updated seems to be about the serial # series in which this feature appears, which has been expanded. The flutes are still those with the extra long keys & perhaps requiring strength/wall thickness in that same area.

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PostPosted: Wed Feb 20, 2019 8:42 pm 
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The flutes are still those with the extra long keys & perhaps requiring strength/wall thickness in that same area.


The issue isn't about strength or wall thickness. The point is that if the barrel was not shortened in this way the socket and tenon
would be located right where the keyed tone hole is. Since the location of the hole, relative to the embouchure, is acoustically constrained,
and since it is not possible/advisable to have a tone hole pass through a socket and tenon joint, the body has been extended, and
the barrel shortened, correspondingly, to move the socket-tenon joint further up the flute towards the embouchure.

The reason the socket tenon relationship has been reversed is because the tuning slide quickly gets in the way as you try to shorten
the barrel, and does not allow the socket-tenon joint to be moved far enough to avoid the tone hole. By reversing the
socket tenon relationship, and having the tenon be part of the barrel, it allows the outer part of the tuning slide to overlap the location
of the tenon/socket, by being part of the tenon. Doing it this way presumably allows the head length to be unchanged and the
gap left when opening the tuning slide to be in the same location as on other R&R flutes. It is a rather clever solution.


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PostPosted: Wed Feb 20, 2019 8:58 pm 
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I think also related to having a cylindrical headjoint & keeping a conical body.

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PostPosted: Thu Feb 21, 2019 2:28 am 
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This particular configuration will not change the length of the cylindrical part of the bore, nor the position at which the transition from cylindrical to conical begins. So, internally, the acoustic properties of the flute will be unchanged. Either a socket on the head and a tenon on the body, or a socket on the body and a tenon on the head, is workable on either the cylindrical of conical portion of the bore, so this is not a constraint. The problem with the former (socket on head and tenon on body) is that in order to keep the socket clear of the keyed tone hole, the tuning slide would need to be moved further toward the embouchure hole, otherwise there would be insufficient contact between it and the barrel to be stable. Moving the tuning slide closer to the embouchure hole would change the acoustic properties of the bore, but only when the slide is open, because the cavity created by the open slide would be in a different location. They probably didn't elect to do that because it can affect tuning.


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PostPosted: Thu Feb 21, 2019 9:23 am 
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As far as a hole through a tenon it is can be done as it has been done on the past for clarinets with a key for an articulated C#/G#.

I think the main reason for not doing it on a flute is that flute players seem to like to turn their joints into their most preferred position. I can see that it may weaken the tenon as well. For clarinets the joints only line up one way for all the keys to work properly. On a flute there would need to be some sort of stop to make sure the holes lined up.


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