why no flute in Appalachian music?

[Conical bore]

Not necessarily. When I looked at your link, I found this:

...but it might also be graphically indicative of the broader local opinion.

Hah! Good find! And yeah, it does kind of make the case both ways.

[Nanohedron]

At one point flutes become "girly" instruments. I'm not sure when this happens but it's still pronounced today. Players of the Boehm flute are disproportionately women.

If you're a fluteplayer, the popular stereotype is hard to miss. I've even had assumptions made about my romantic orientations, just on the basis of the instrument I played! Whatever.

In a simplified nutshell, the transverse flute in Europe was known early on as a military instrument, and for quite a while after it slipped those confines it continued to be a "man's" instrument; the flute was considered unseemly for women because one made faces to play it, to say nothing of the accompanying phallic associations its form and manner of playing presented: a vision most unladylike to the dirty of mind. Apart from that, women were thought not to have the lung power anyway. A ridiculous assumption, but such were the times. So how did it transition to being thought a woman's instrument? I can only guess, but here's a possibility: As a typical, almost cliché accessory in portraits of your upper-class gentleman in his study, the flute came to be associated with education and refinement. Take it far enough in the context of class distinctions, and refinement becomes as twee as ribbons and bows, which, it must be said, had their day but fell into disfavor for men's attire, and apart from awards, the absence continues. As another symbol of refinement and possibly even decadence, the flute may similarly have lost its "manliness" and so in the popular imagination became the domain of women, where worries over compromising one's masculinity do not apply.

It's a theory, anyway. Gender assignments aside, it's not impossible that the flute could have found little favor in Appalachian music entirely on the basis of its associations with urbane refinement, which might pose an uneasy fit to an identity predicated instead on being rugged and resourceful.

[mendipman]

At one point flutes become "girly" instruments. I'm not sure when this happens but it's still pronounced today. Players of the Boehm flute are disproportionately women.

If you're a fluteplayer, the popular stereotype is hard to miss. I've even had assumptions made about my romantic orientations, just on the basis of the instrument I played! Whatever.

Is this an American stereotype? I have never encountered even a hint of gender stereotyping in regard to the flute here in England.

In the period we are discussing -the nineteenth century, the narrative was one of positive male role models in regard to flute players

[Nanohedron]

Is this an American stereotype?

Apparently it must be.

It all comes down to the individual, of course, but you do encounter it. I was hit on by a guy once because of it, and I know this because he said as much. As far as he was concerned, with that flute I might as well have been wearing a sign saying "Looking for Mr. Right Now", and he couldn't be convinced otherwise. It wasn't so much the persistent flirting per se, but the stereotype itself that bugged me - talk about being objectified out of existence! Can I not be loved for myself? Plus I was on stage, and he was merrily doing his wicked level best to get me flustered, paying no mind to whoever might be within earshot - no doubt my bandmates were highly amused - and then as if things couldn't have been awkward enough already, on top of it I learned my groupie was a priest. Water, water everywhere, and not a drop to drink ... it was one of those nights.

[PB+J]

As mentioned, In O'Neill's Chicago the police force was full of flute players, and I'm pretty sure the Chicago police force on the late 19th century took a backseat to none when it came to aggressive masculinity.

In the US it is absolutely a thing--not necessarily in professional orchestras, but everywhere else flute is a woman's instrument. In our daughter's middle school band all the flutes are girls: the same is true in every grade level band and in the high school band and in virtually every college in the US. Typically the brass section is all or mostly boys. Saxes are mixed.

here's link on it from the Baltimore symphony orchestra: https://www.bsomusic.org/stories/boys-p ... e-but-why/

"At the top professional orchestra level, analysis by composer and programmer Suby Raman shows distinct gender preferences for certain instruments. Women musicians in 20 of the top American orchestras accounted for the majority of flute and violin players, as well as accounting for 95 percent of harpists. Male musicians made up 91 percent of double bassists and anywhere from 95 to 97 percent of trumpet, trombone and tuba players."

Guitar was a "woman's instrument" in the 19th century, at least in the US. It was mostly for parlors and for women to play in parlors. Then it switches gender

[Conical bore]

As mentioned, In O'Neill's Chicago the police force was full of flute players, and I'm pretty sure the Chicago police force on the late 19th century took a backseat to none when it came to aggressive masculinity.

No kidding, just look at these guys: http://ptjams.com/mb/img/flutes/Irish-M ... o-1901.jpg

Okay, the two lying down in front look a little fey, but that's a macho bunch right there. No girlie flute players need apply.

In the US it is absolutely a thing--not necessarily in professional orchestras, but everywhere else flute is a woman's instrument. In our daughter's middle school band all the flutes are girls: the same is true in every grade level band and in the high school band and in virtually every college in the US. Typically the brass section is all or mostly boys. Saxes are mixed.

(snip)
Guitar was a "woman's instrument" in the 19th century, at least in the US. It was mostly for parlors and for women to play in parlors. Then it switches gender

Right! Here in the USA, the guitar became heavily gendered as a male instrument starting in the Cowboy and Western Swing bands in the 40's, and then Rock'n Roll bands in the 50's and onward.

Which left... well, everything else like piano, violin (not fiddle!), and flute for the girls. Genteel parlor music and Classical instruments. I guess it didn't happen that way in Ireland because the flute was already well-established as part of the national folk music since the 1800's.

[Nanohedron]

Okay, the two lying down in front look a little fey...

Maybe for apes.

[PB+J]

As mentioned, In O'Neill's Chicago the police force was full of flute players, and I'm pretty sure the Chicago police force on the late 19th century took a backseat to none when it came to aggressive masculinity.

No kidding, just look at these guys: http://ptjams.com/mb/img/flutes/Irish-M ... o-1901.jpg

Okay, the two lying down in front look a little fey, but that's a macho bunch right there. No girlie flute players need apply.

Also rocking the facial hair! Those were the days when men apparently had a lot of time to lavish on mustaches

[Mr.Gumby]

As mentioned, In O'Neill's Chicago the police force was full of flute players

O'Neill gave jobs to musicians to keep them in Chicago so he could get tunes off them. You will have to wonder if the situation was a typical one.

Flute playing in Ireland was always a bit of a macho activity, the physicality of fluteplaying and all that. Not considered suitable for women at all.

The popularity fro mthe sixties onward of the boehm flute among women worldwide is a completely separate subject.

[Thomaston]

It was absolutely gender specific where I grew up in Alabama. I was in symphonic, marching, and jazz band classes all through high school, as a tenor sax player.

Here’s how it broke down:
Girls only: flute, clarinet
Boys only: tuba, drums
Everything else could go either way, but generally the larger instruments like the trombone were more male than female. Trumpet and saxophones were 50/50, although the soprano sax was always female.

It all seemed fairly normal to me as an ignorant youth, I’m sad to say. It was perpetuated by the adults, and it took distance and wisdom to see how truly effed up some of stuff was that we were conditioned to as children in the South. And I’m not just talking music. But that’s a whole other topic.

[Steampacket]

Flute playing in Ireland was always a bit of a macho activity, the physicality of fluteplaying and all that. Not considered suitable for women at all. Mr. Gumby

Yes exactly. Thankfully though these days there are many brilliant females playing Irish traditional music on simple system flutes.

The popularity from the sixties onward of the boehm flute among women worldwide is a completely separate subject. Mr. Gumby

Yes I agree, and as regards female flute players in Irish traditional music I can only think of Joanie Madden, and another lady from Boston, Mass. who is a regular at Willie Week and Tubercurry who play the metal boehm flute. Very well too I may add. If Americans must gender define music instruments then that just betrays their ignorance

This thread would be better suited to some old timey/American folk music forum. Who cares why there is no tradition of simple system flute playing in the Appalachian mountains? Old timey/Appalachian music has no need of wind instruments and is fine as it is.

[Mr.Gumby]

Yes exactly. Thankfully though these days there are many brilliant females playing Irish traditional music on simple system flutes.

Like women playing the pipes, there were always a few who played these instruments anyway, no matter what polite society thought of it and these segregations have by and large vanished.

There are plenty of stories though from women of previous generations (well, I know a few from my own generation as well) who so much wanted to play the pipes or the flute but weren't let near them because it wasn't the right thing for a girl to do.

There's this interview with Seámus Ennis' daughter who was in awe of the pipes and wanted to learn them. Seámus came back with a set of Northumbrian pipes for her, saying they'd be more suitable, much to her dismay.

Boys playing harps, not much was thought of that either.

But then, large parts of society see playing music as just another good reason to bully people. A fiddle player I knew told me the secondary school he was going to was a tech, it would would have been unthinkable for him to admit he played the fiddle. There was an interview with Paddy Glackin recently in which he told he and brothers used to keep their fiddle cases under their coats when out, so they couldn't be seen.

[Nanohedron]

If Americans must gender define music instruments then that just betrays their ignorance

Yes, pigeonholing is such an insidious practice, isn't it.

[PB+J]

Who cares why there is no tradition of simple system flute playing in the Appalachian mountains? Old timey/Appalachian music has no need of wind instruments and is fine as it is.

I do, but only because I think it's an interesting question about how musical traditions get transplanted and transmitted. If it's not interesting to you, you can always not read it.

[jim stone]

'Old timey/Appalachian music has no need of wind instruments and is fine as it is.'

Perhaps and it is consistent with this that flute enhances such music and makes it still more interesting and beautiful. Playing flute often in such venues, I note that experienced OT musicians positively want me to show up and play and miss the flute when I don't. These musical traditions remain in process.

Just to get down to cases, here's an Appalachian tune (note the cello). Surely the addition of a well-played wooden flute could be a welcome addition.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fDT6PNSs4I0