The history of Irish flute making

[Andro]

Hi Terry and All,

I think this is a great idea. Speaking as a harpsichord maker myself, and having recently come to learning Irish flute, this historical documentation is very valuable. Exactly along the same lines Wolfgang Zuckermann, recently deceased, wrote a thick book decades ago (1969) called "The Modern Harpsichord: Twentieth century instruments and their makers". In exactly the same way the Irish flute has developed in the 20c, so did the revival of the making of harpsichords.

I think the term Irish flute is perfectly fine. It's in common use. I can't really believe people would be confused about matters of geography and so on, and if you reference it all to matters of internal bore shape and design and simple system (as opposed to what?) it's needlessly nit picking. Gosh, I play Scottish music on my Irish flute, and I am not confused by that. Go with Irish flute.

We sometimes make French or German harpsichords. We are in Australia. It doesn't confuse anybody. Surely the epithet refers to the style of the design, not the country.

A great project Terry.

[Terry McGee]

Ah, Andro, I hadn't heard Wolfgang Zuckerman had died. We met him in his manor-house in England after he'd sold the Zuckerman kit-building business along with his name to D. Jacques Way. He moved to England and then couldn't help himself - he started making kit harpsichords again! In the ballroom of the manor-house - he showed us over. But he commented how much more fun it was actually making the kits than being stuck in the office employing chaps to make the kits. We can appreciate that.

He also mentioned that back in the US he had listed his phone number under the name Tony Vivaldi, to avoid being called up at all times of night and day by kit builders in trouble!

We bought a single-manual Italian kit from him, without lid or stand to keep shipping weight and price down, for the princely sum of £115. And put it in our Kombi camper van to drive to London with it to consign it to Australia. Putting that together was probably our first serious musical instrument building experience (but I'll have to check that!). Gillian Alcock (my partner at the time) went on to build some other early keyboards, the branched into hammer dulcimers. I of course got into flutes, but have also done some more work on early keyboards. Thanks and RIP, Tony Vivaldi!

And yes, I remember Zuckerman's book well. And the horror of working on the Neipert harpsichord at the Canberra School of Music. "The OK Jacks with the Silvertone quills." Arrggghhhh!

[fatmac]

The Simple System Flute : Its development & makers.

[Peter Duggan]

and simple system (as opposed to what?)

Boehm, Rudall Carte 1867 etc.

it's needlessly nit picking. Gosh, I play Scottish music on my Irish flute, and I am not confused by that. Go with Irish flute.

I never play Irish flute, except possibly when playing Irish tunes on my flutes (no qualification necessary) by an English-born USA maker. While I don't play trad. on my Boehms, that doesn't make my simple/trad. flutes Irish. Those of us who hate the term are as entitled to our views as you are to be comfortable with it.

It's a bit like the term 'classical music' in that there's no truly accurate short designation. Classical music is basically Haydn, Mozart, Beethoven and their contemporaries, not anything that's not rock, pop, folk, world, jazz etc. Calling that art music, serious music, western music, western art music etc. belittles other genres by implication that they're not art, serious or whatever, so I have a kind of running gag with my pupils where we refer to so-called 'classical music' as 'music for violins and things by mostly dead composers'. Which is really no more accurate than any of the other terms, but makes the point of inadequate convenient terminology. Classical music is the wrong descriptor for Vivaldi or Verdi, and Irish flute at best a very poor one for the flute none of us can adequately name.

[Andro]

I just noticed Wikipedia has a page for Irish Flute, discussing the type of instruments we are talking about. Wikip. is not always right about things, but it does seem to be a reasonable name for these instruments.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Irish_flute

I'm thinking French Horn is a similar case.

We could always call them Hornbostel-Sachs 421.121.12. instruments [This is the actual classification I believe, but I _am_ joking...]

[jemtheflute]

The worst thing of all, especially given broader political history, about the term "Irish Flute" is that (responding to some earlier comments about design) the design is distinctively and quintessentially *English*!

[Andro]

I think French horns are basically a German design, aren't they?

[jemtheflute]

I think French horns are basically a German design, aren't they?

While the cor anglais is French.....?

[mendipman]

>It’s my view that we need to start recording the history of this phenomenon before we lose too many of its actors. The recent unexpected death of well-appreciated Australian maker Michael Grinter serves to illustrate my point<

The solution seems a simple straightforward alteration in grammar to me; The History of Flute Making In Ireland

There you go - that is a neatly descriptive fit to your proposed subject without the added element of mischieviously sticking the ball up your jumper and running off the field with it.

...or carving your name on the church pew with your penknife in the belief that is 'ownership'.

[Mr.Gumby]

The History of Flute Making In Ireland

That was my first thought too, and reading the subject like that made me initially come up with the Coyne flute in an earlier post. Makers like Grinter, Olwell, Wilkes are however automatically ruled out by the geographical limitation.

[jemtheflute]

Exactly. The envisaged project has rather little to do with flute making in Ireland or by makers of Irish extraction.

[Flutesoftheforest]

"The history of flutemakers and flutes for Irish music" or "A record of 20th century flutemakers and flutes for Irish music".

[Conical bore]

"The history of flutemakers and flutes for Irish music" or "A record of 20th century flutemakers and flutes for Irish music".

Nitpicking again ... "20th Century" would leave out makers like Forbes and Yola Christie (Windward flutes), who started in 2004. Unless it was Terry's intent to have a cut-off, and only discuss the late 20th Century makers who first revived or modified the 19th Century designs?

BTW, I know there's a difference between a survey and a history, and something like this could get bogged down in trying to list every maker, past and present. The development of ideas around this instrument would be the most interesting to me personally. I honestly don't know where Windward fits into that, with a modified Pratten-ish design and one cosmetic difference with flush rings. They have also been promoting use of heat-treated Canadian Maple as an option, so that's interesting in a time where some of the traditional woods are becoming problematic.

There is probably a whole chapter that could be written about how changes in the wood market have affected the recent history of "Irish flute" making (there's that phrase again).

[Steampacket]

I think the term Irish flute is perfectly fine. It's in common use. I can't really believe people would be confused about matters of geography and so on, and if you reference it all to matters of internal bore shape and design and simple system (as opposed to what?) it's needlessly nit picking. Gosh, I play Scottish music on my Irish flute, and I am not confused by that. Go with Irish flute.

No the term "Irish flute" is not in common use as far as I know. I've never heard a flute player that plays Irish traditional music in Ireland, England, Scotland, Sweden, Denmark, Norway, Japan or France, use the term.

Which makes sense as the modern simple system timber flute, keyed or unkeyed, is based on the 19th century simple system flutes made in England by Rudall & Rose, Prowse, Boosey & Hawkes, Wallis, Simpson, and Fentum, etc.

Regarding "matters of geography" In the 19th century flute world of simple system flutes there were definite differences of design between simple system flutes made in France, Germany, America, and England. So even today when people talk of French flutes, they mean flutes made in France, and likewise when they speak of German, American, or English flutes.

They don't mean you play French music on French flutes. So with this in mind to use the term "Irish flute" for modern simple system flutes is fundamentally wrong, as these modern simple system flutes are made in many different countries, and they are not only used to play Irish traditional music.

The Simple System Flute : Its development & makers. fatmac

A much better title I think. Prehaps even: The simple system flute: it's development & makers after 1970.

[Andro]

No the term "Irish flute" is not in common use as far as I know. I've never heard a flute player that plays Irish traditional music in Ireland, England, Scotland, Sweden, Denmark, Norway, Japan or France, use the term.

I'm finding this to be very interesting. McNeela Music where I bought my Sam Murray flute from calls them Irish Flutes on his homepage. I am quite prepared to drop the term, but that's where I picked it up. Many people here in Australia call them Irish flutes, but we are nothing but a remote penal colony. Our local Australian maker Terry McGee calls them Irish flutes on his website. Dearie me.