The history of Irish flute making

The Chiff & Fipple Irish Flute on-line community. Sideblown for your protection.
User avatar
Nanohedron
Moderatorer
Posts: 38212
Joined: Wed Dec 18, 2002 6:00 pm
antispam: No
Please enter the next number in sequence: 8
Tell us something.: Been a fluter, citternist, and uilleann piper; committed now to the way of the harp.

Oh, yeah: also a mod here, not a spammer. A matter of opinion, perhaps.
Location: Lefse country

Re: The history of Irish flute making

Post by Nanohedron »

Peter Duggan wrote:
Thalatta wrote:Ok, so it could be called the German flute, or the Irish flute.
I'd say German flute really refers to baroque types, so predating any models influencing what you might or might not call Irish today.
Well, the name was kept active, apparently; my second two examples, especially the last, post-date the Baroque era.

I've never called it the German flute except in discussions like this; the term's long obsolete now and has lost the meaning it used to have in musical circles centuries past. I confess I wince a bit at "Irish", but it's such a persistent term these days. So what to do? Usually (to the layman wondering if it's a clarinet) I start by calling it a premodern concert flute, because the description's brief and can be quickly grasped; calling it a Romantic-era conical bore simple system concert pitch whatsit makes them look for an exit.

Glad the second pic try showed up. :thumbsup:
"If you take music out of this world, you will have nothing but a ball of fire." - Tribal musician
User avatar
Peter Duggan
Posts: 3223
Joined: Tue Aug 30, 2011 5:39 pm
antispam: No
Please enter the next number in sequence: 8
Tell us something.: I'm not registering, I'm trying to edit my profile! The field “Tell us something.” is too short, a minimum of 100 characters is required.
Location: Kinlochleven
Contact:

Re: The history of Irish flute making

Post by Peter Duggan »

Nanohedron wrote:Well, the name was kept active, apparently; my second two examples, especially the last, post-date the Baroque era.
OK, so kept despite little need to distinguish from recorder after the latter virtually disappeared through Classical and Romantic periods.

It's also older than I thought:
http://www.flutehistory.com/Instrument/Medieval.php3

(I have Ardal Powell's book too, and have read it!)
And we in dreams behold the Hebrides.

Master of nine?
fatmac
Posts: 1149
Joined: Mon Aug 14, 2017 5:47 am
antispam: No
Please enter the next number in sequence: 8
Tell us something.: Kickbiker - at over 70!
:lol:
....................................................................
....................................................................

Re: The history of Irish flute making

Post by fatmac »

This thread is certainly becoming interesting, as I didn't know the transverse flute as we know it, came originally from outside of Europe, though I did know that the Chinese & Japanese seemed to have had something similar a long time ago, from pictures I've seen - which would suggest, to me, that the term 'Irish Flute' is way off..... :D
Keith.
Trying to do justice to my various musical instruments.
Thalatta
Posts: 329
Joined: Sun Oct 05, 2008 10:09 am
Please enter the next number in sequence: 1
Location: France

Re: The history of Irish flute making

Post by Thalatta »

So the English took over Ireland and forced the Irish to adopt English; then the Irish took over the English flute and forced it to adopt Irish! Hehe. And now the English flute is called the Irish flute which was originally called the German flute which was possibly the Asian flute which was something else before that and before that too and was either a bamboo shoot or a bone and the wind in the leaves blowing through something and making the music of the stars (of space... not Lady Gaga)... I find it really interesting to show students how the Irish flute, so connected now with pictures of sessions in Irish pubs, was in fact the English romantic flute, which was in fact something else and so on, and how Irish culture adopted other cultures, just as all cultures spring from their interactions with other cultures.

In any case, nice idea Terry. It seems a wonderful profession, I'd love to have done it myself (never tried, but am in admiration of any of you who have tried it, let alone succeeded in making beautiful ones - whatever they're called!).
Thalatta
PB+J
Posts: 1306
Joined: Sun Mar 25, 2018 5:40 am
antispam: No
Please enter the next number in sequence: 8
Tell us something.: I'm a historian and the author of "The Beat Cop:Chicago's Chief O'Neill and the Creation of Irish Music," published by the University of Chicago in 2022. I live in Arlington VA and play the flute sincerely but not well

Re: The history of Irish flute making

Post by PB+J »

Probably everybody already knows this, but Francis O'Neill gives a short history of the flute in his book Irish Minstrels and Musicians. He interestingly classes the tin whistle and the flute as both flutes, which is technically true, and says that "No one but a born musician, or one who had no other outlets for his musical instinct, was likely to learn to play the flute." Those forced to make a living as musicians--the blind, the lame, the halt--"invariably chose the Union pipes and the fiddle as the instrument most likely to touch the sensibilities of the people." ..."But no musical instrument was in such common use among the Irish peasantry as the flute." So both the whistle and the flute are flutes, and both are the instrument of non-professionals.

Why did ordinary people prefer the flute, if listeners preferred the fiddle or pipes? He points out that once you bought a flute or whistle, no further investment of money was required; no strings, no reeds, no bag or bellows to maintain, and that unless broken they would outlive their owners. He also points out that divided into sections, a flute could be carried easily and "without display," which points to the idea of Irish folk music as semi-licit.

There were no methods, method books or standardized practices for flute, he says, and so people learned from whatever local person was willing to give up his secrets. He suggests this was somewhat less so with the pipes and the fiddle. Every townland had at least one or more flute players, he says, of widely varying skill levels.

He gives a short history of the transverse flute and then starts talking about various flute players. The specific of the instrument--what makes a flute, does it have keys, the nature of the bore--none of that appears. I can't recall O'Neill ever saying much about the specifics of instruments, in contrast to modern denizens of forums like myself who love to belabor small points of difference between two instruments. In his memoir he talks about having to sell a beloved flute but says little about what kind of flute it was. At one point he borrows a flute from a Hawaiian sailor and plays some Irish tunes, much to the Hawaiian sailor's delight. But he tells us nothing about that flute either.

It's pretty clear he has no idea at all of an "Irish flute" as a physical thing, and that "flute" in general is an instrument played by amateurs and peasants, though he also talks about the unforgettable sound of a flute or whistle heard on an evening from a mile away. In his Irish Folk Music: a Fascinating Hobby, published in 1910, it's all about the pipes the pipes the pipes.

So O'Neill appears to be only thinking of "Irish music," and the flute as an instrument which could and did play Irish music. He has no idea of an "Irish flute," even though the flute and the whistle are the most common instruments in the countryside.
Last edited by PB+J on Tue Dec 18, 2018 10:15 am, edited 2 times in total.
david_h
Posts: 1735
Joined: Mon Aug 13, 2007 2:04 am
Please enter the next number in sequence: 1
Location: Mercia

Re: The history of Irish flute making

Post by david_h »

PB+J wrote: a flute could be carried easily and "without display," which points to the idea of Irish folk music as semi-licit.
When walking back through some parts of town from sessions after closing time I am pleased that I can carry a flute 'without display' rather than, say, carrying a fiddle case. Could that have been what was meant?

I may have missed it somewhere in this long discussion but what's the problem with "post 1970 [or whenever] simple sytem flute"?
PB+J
Posts: 1306
Joined: Sun Mar 25, 2018 5:40 am
antispam: No
Please enter the next number in sequence: 8
Tell us something.: I'm a historian and the author of "The Beat Cop:Chicago's Chief O'Neill and the Creation of Irish Music," published by the University of Chicago in 2022. I live in Arlington VA and play the flute sincerely but not well

Re: The history of Irish flute making

Post by PB+J »

david_h wrote:
PB+J wrote: a flute could be carried easily and "without display," which points to the idea of Irish folk music as semi-licit.
When walking back through some parts of town from sessions after closing time I am pleased that I can carry a flute 'without display' rather than, say, carrying a fiddle case. Could that have been what was meant?
O'Neill describes both the Catholic church and the English wanting to suppress this music in his childhood (roughly the 1850/60s) so I think thats what he's referring to. You could carry a flute around without calling attention to yourself. He never mentions that kind of robbery in that era that I can recall.
User avatar
Conical bore
Posts: 505
Joined: Sat Aug 04, 2012 7:12 pm
antispam: No
Please enter the next number in sequence: 8
Location: Pacific Northwest USA

Re: The history of Irish flute making

Post by Conical bore »

david_h wrote:I may have missed it somewhere in this long discussion but what's the problem with "post 1970 [or whenever] simple sytem flute"?
Try using the term simple system flute (without quotes) in Google, and see what you get on the first page or two of results. Now do the same thing with Irish flute. Also note the difference in the two Wikipedia pages that turn up.

The term Irish flute has become conventional usage, for better or worse. That horse has left the barn, as it were. Any historical study will get more links and attention using Irish flute than the term simple system.

Maybe the best approach is to use scare quotes -- call it The "Irish" Flute -- to indicate that the Irish part of the term has some issues that will be explained. Somewhere along the way, it can be mentioned that regardless of the fact that it can be used for many styles, it's probably the Irish folk music revival of the 60's-70's that resulted in so many players of this type of flute, supporting so many different makers. It might have had the status of replica Baroque flutes today, made and played only in very small numbers, if that cultural revival hadn't occurred. Maybe that's enough to justify at least a scare-quote use of the word "Irish" for a historical project.
JackJ
Posts: 81
Joined: Wed Feb 14, 2018 8:29 am
antispam: No
Please enter the next number in sequence: 8
Tell us something.: A new tin whistle player, I'm eager to learn more from the collective wisdom of this group. While my playing could use lots of help, I'm especially eager to learn which recordings to listen to.

Re: The history of Irish flute making

Post by JackJ »

Terry McGee wrote:The Irish flute is a thoroughly modern invention, probably (as far as we can tell at the moment) dating from around the mid 1970’s.
I'm new to all this. While I'm waiting (patiently, I promise!) for the knowledgeable to decide what to call this history so that it can then be compiled, could someone concisely explain to me how the instrument in question can only be 40 or so years old? I get that there was a folk music resurgence at that time, and infer that new makers appeared to meet the demand. But did they collectively invent a new instrument, as Terry suggests? What were musicians playing before the mid 70's? How were the new instruments different?
User avatar
Nanohedron
Moderatorer
Posts: 38212
Joined: Wed Dec 18, 2002 6:00 pm
antispam: No
Please enter the next number in sequence: 8
Tell us something.: Been a fluter, citternist, and uilleann piper; committed now to the way of the harp.

Oh, yeah: also a mod here, not a spammer. A matter of opinion, perhaps.
Location: Lefse country

Re: The history of Irish flute making

Post by Nanohedron »

JackJ wrote:But did they collectively invent a new instrument, as Terry suggests? What were musicians playing before the mid 70's? How were the new instruments different?
In a nutshell, it's the doing away with the keys. It's that simple. Prior to that retrograde development, the orchestrally obsolete (due to Boehm) wooden concert flutes, salvaged from the dustbin and now appropriated for Trad playing, all had keys. That was the norm in the West; a homemade keyless flute would have been considered rustic and unsuited for serious consideration in disciplined musical circles. And why bother making one that might not even play when there were so many professionally-made keyed ones left abandoned, and to be had for a song? As the keywork on these "legitimate" (if dated) flutes became increasingly leaky and inoperative over time and few had the means to have repairs done, and as it became increasingly clear that the keys had little if any relevance to the overwhelmingly modal nature of Irish trad, people started removing the keys and plugging up the keyholes. Eventually someone decided that for Irish playing, at least, there was no need for keys in the big picture, and new makers started making them keyless. In that regard, it's a new development even though keyless is in fact a technological reversal within the Western tradition. In Trad terms keys are now considered optional, whereas before they were understood in a general sense to be de rigueur.
"If you take music out of this world, you will have nothing but a ball of fire." - Tribal musician
fatmac
Posts: 1149
Joined: Mon Aug 14, 2017 5:47 am
antispam: No
Please enter the next number in sequence: 8
Tell us something.: Kickbiker - at over 70!
:lol:
....................................................................
....................................................................

Re: The history of Irish flute making

Post by fatmac »

But surely, the first ever flutes would have been keyless, as in the hollowing out of bone or wood, & the addition of holes to play different notes(?). :D

This seems to be turning out to be very tricky to define. :wink:

Maybe it should be: The Developement of the Simple System Flute Since the 1970s. :thumbsup:
Keith.
Trying to do justice to my various musical instruments.
User avatar
Nanohedron
Moderatorer
Posts: 38212
Joined: Wed Dec 18, 2002 6:00 pm
antispam: No
Please enter the next number in sequence: 8
Tell us something.: Been a fluter, citternist, and uilleann piper; committed now to the way of the harp.

Oh, yeah: also a mod here, not a spammer. A matter of opinion, perhaps.
Location: Lefse country

Re: The history of Irish flute making

Post by Nanohedron »

fatmac wrote:But surely, the first ever flutes would have been keyless, as in the hollowing out of bone or wood, & the addition of holes to play different notes(?). :D
Oh, sure. Crossed and forked fingering also took care of the chromatic aspect. That kind of playing was commonplace. But as the finger holes became ever larger (for the sake of increased volume), such special fingerings became less and less successful; thus the advent of the keys. Eventually, advanced Western flute technology universally included keys, and that is the stage of development where the Trad players first picked up the flute. The historical record indicates that flutes weren't really a representative part of the Irish folk arsenal, if at all, before then; after Boehm, the simple system flutes - keyed, to be sure - were obsolete within classical circles, and with such a glut of abandoned instruments, they became affordable to all. The trend away from keys in conical bore construction came later, in this case.

That's the gist of it, anyway.
"If you take music out of this world, you will have nothing but a ball of fire." - Tribal musician
User avatar
Terry McGee
Posts: 3330
Joined: Sun Dec 12, 2004 4:12 pm
Please enter the next number in sequence: 1
Location: Malua Bay, on the NSW Nature Coast
Contact:

Re: The history of Irish flute making

Post by Terry McGee »

JackJ wrote:
Terry McGee wrote:The Irish flute is a thoroughly modern invention, probably (as far as we can tell at the moment) dating from around the mid 1970’s.
I'm new to all this. While I'm waiting (patiently, I promise!) for the knowledgeable to decide what to call this history so that it can then be compiled, could someone concisely explain to me how the instrument in question can only be 40 or so years old? I get that there was a folk music resurgence at that time, and infer that new makers appeared to meet the demand. But did they collectively invent a new instrument, as Terry suggests? What were musicians playing before the mid 70's? How were the new instruments different?
Mea culpa! I should have said "a thoroughly modern development". Before the mid-70's (as far as I know, and that's one reason for us to try to capture the early history while we still can), players used 19th century mostly English and German flutes, in various states of disrepair, many chronic. And some still do of course, but usually in far better condition than was normal back then.

And we didn't "collectively" invent the keyless, more "simultaneously", I suspect. For the very simple reason that none of us back then knew anyone else doing it. Until the Internet came along, we mostly worked in splendid isolation, or more accurately, blissful ignorance! So, it's a case of working out who was doing what when. For example I went for the Integral right hand and short foot approach, but others went for the original LH, RH and Long Foot approach. Eugene Lamb's flute shown recently followed the same approach as I did but integrated all the body into one long piece. I hope we could get images of more early versions from that era for our history.
JackJ
Posts: 81
Joined: Wed Feb 14, 2018 8:29 am
antispam: No
Please enter the next number in sequence: 8
Tell us something.: A new tin whistle player, I'm eager to learn more from the collective wisdom of this group. While my playing could use lots of help, I'm especially eager to learn which recordings to listen to.

Re: The history of Irish flute making

Post by JackJ »

Thanks Terry and Nanohedron for, ahem, keying me in. I'm here on C&F as a new whistle player, but suspect at some point I will, like most in my shoes, want to try a flute. Looking forward to learning about the history of the instrument, so glad to hear more may be coming on that front. Apart from the trepidation that the word "embouchure" inspires in me, I've now got to figure out these keys.

I see most contemporary makers offer keyless instruments, but most ITM players seem to go for at least some keys, in my very limited awareness. I think I get the advantages (playing in more key signatures with better intonation), but as a whistle player, all that hardware looks to be in the way. Like I said, I've got a lot to learn, and I don't want to further derail this thread. But keeping somewhat on topic: How much of modern "Irish flute makers'" output is recreating the no longer ubiquitous chromatic flutes of yore, vs. keyless or minimally keyed versions that are more specific to ITM? Am I wrong in thinking that many players are now seeking new versions of the old instruments?
User avatar
Nanohedron
Moderatorer
Posts: 38212
Joined: Wed Dec 18, 2002 6:00 pm
antispam: No
Please enter the next number in sequence: 8
Tell us something.: Been a fluter, citternist, and uilleann piper; committed now to the way of the harp.

Oh, yeah: also a mod here, not a spammer. A matter of opinion, perhaps.
Location: Lefse country

Re: The history of Irish flute making

Post by Nanohedron »

JackJ wrote:...most ITM players seem to go for at least some keys, in my very limited awareness.
An old ITM chestnut: The primary virtue of keys is that they keep your flute from rolling off the table. Given that you can get by without keys for most of the Irish repertory, there's actually some truth in that. If you intend to play in a variety of nonstandard keys, or want to be able to field the more chromatic tunes when the fiddlers are in force, they'll serve you well enough. Keys are probably going to be more immediately useful in Scottish Trad. You can play chromatically without keys, but it's a lot of half-holing and not all the results will be optimal. Done at speed would take some mad skillz, but there are people who do it. It's not for me, though.

In general, I would recommend the ITM-directed beginner start with keyless until your level of commitment is clear. Then the decision arises as to how many you want; I prefer fully keyed on general principle. Have I used all my keys? Yes, except for the Bb due to my grip; in retrospect I would now get a double touch for that one. I sure crossfingered that note often enough. Have I used the keys often? Not so much in session playing, but having them did inspire me to take up tunes that would require their use, which is an added bonus in performance playing. Would I get keys again? Without question, but that's me; I like gear, and I like the options keys offer.
Jack wrote:...as a whistle player, all that hardware looks to be in the way.
It's really not. A full array of keys does add some weight, though, so the keyed flute's physical balance is important.

Apologies for the hijack. :oops:

FWIW, finding a good terminological substitute for "Irish Flute" promises to be an uphill battle these days, not that one shouldn't still try. Today I happened to be searching for Galway fluteplaying; first, I can tell you that was a fool's errand because no matter how I couched and refined the keywords, the results were - you guessed it - invariably all about Sir James. One might have foreseen that. Whatever I entered, beyond three pages I had neither the time nor the energy to see how many more it would take to finally get what I was looking for. Anyway, in the course of my struggles to break thru the the wall that is James Galway, what should I see but a seemingly vagrant Wikipedia entry for "Irish Flute" ... and I thought of this thread.
"If you take music out of this world, you will have nothing but a ball of fire." - Tribal musician
Post Reply