The history of Irish flute making

[paddler]

I find myself wondering whether the issue here is one of trying to find a suitable title, or one of trying to define a suitable scope for
the project. I think the scope of the project needs to be defined first. It doesn't make much sense to select a title before knowing the
scope.

So, with that in mind, let me ask how you feel about the role of a maker like Jil Lehart in this project. He is based in France. He started
making wooden flutes in the late 1980s for his friend Jean Michel Veillon, who plays a lot of Breton music as well as music from other
regions. Numerous other famous players play Jil's instruments. On his website, Jil describes his instruments as "wooden flutes".

None of the above seems to have any connection to Ireland. He is not an Irish maker. He does not make "Irish flutes". His flutes are
sometimes used to play Irish tunes, and they are good for that purpose, but that was not their initial or primary target.

So, would you consider Jil Lehart to be an "Irish Flute maker"? Would you consider him to be inside the scope of this project?

Using a broader term like "wooden flute" raises questions about whether flutes made from Delrin or Ebonite count, but I feel more
comfortable calling a delrin flute a wooden flute than I do about labeling wooden flute makers from all over the world as Irish flute
makers.

[Andro]

I think the title is meant to indicate the scope. But you have a very good point paddler.

It's true that 'wooden' would seem to exclude materials like Delrin. I'm not happy classifying Delrin as wood. Amusingly, we use Delrin for plectra in harpsichords but I call them quills.

[Andro]

Hi paddler. Solen Leseouf is a Breton maker. His website:

Solen Lesouef Flûtes Irlandaises

https://www.atelierdelutherie.info/flut ... es?lang=fr

cheerio!

[tstermitz]

Solen Lesouef... "her" website...

I've thought about it, and I'm okay with Irish Flute. Every other top-line short-description is awkward. I mean, "wooden, simple-system flute" is the way I think of it, but that draws blank stares from pretty much everyone, including 99% of flute players who probably learned on Boehm system silver flutes.

So, Irish Flute on the top-line informs us right off that we are "Not Boehm". The second line says something like "Modern makers of wooden flutes in the tradition of antique simple-system flutes from the 19th Century."

If you just say wooden flute or folk flute, then most people are thinking Native American or Bansuri, or Flageolet, or who knows...

It doesn't bother me that "Irish" flutes are being used for other kinds of music, Scottish, Canadian, Breton, Cuban or Choro.

Is there a way to format this as a Wiki website?

[Andro]

Solen Lesouef... "her" website...

Apologies! Not being familiar with Breton, I did not realise the gender of the name (and I thought there are no clues on her website, but I did just uncover one hint).

[Terry McGee]

Does anyone know if Solen is our only female "Irish or similar" flute maker? (I'm going to be really embarrassed if we have heaps!) It's an interesting question to wonder why.

We're sure covering a lot of ground in the discussion on names. I think it's illustrating how wicked a challenge it is. "What's in a name", wondered Shakespeare. "An Irish flute by any other name would play as loud...."

Heh heh, I remember the first time I visited UNSW Physics when Paul Dickens was doing his PhD on flute modelling. I played them a bit on my flute. There was silence after. "Gee, it's loud" commented one of the lab people. They clearly weren't prepared for that. Better reset the acoustic impedance spectrometer to "stun".

I wonder if the solution to paddler's question about the inclusion of Jil Lehart is "if he wants to be". I'm imagining that inclusion of living makers would involve them formulating their own entry (who else would you trust?).

Perhaps some makers would prefer not to be included at all - that's certainly their right. If Jil looked at what we had so far and said "yeah, that's pretty much what I do" (pardonnez-moi: "oui, c'est à peu près ce que je fais"), he might feel motivated to join in. But if he thought "nah" (non), that's fine too.

Perhaps our history might inspire other associated fields to do their own. That would be a good outcome.

[Peter Duggan]

I've thought about it, and I'm okay with Irish Flute. Every other top-line short-description is awkward. I mean, "wooden, simple-system flute" is the way I think of it,

I just think 'flute' and say 'flute', even though I have Boehms as well (and call these 'flute' too)*. Likewise plain 'whistle' (not 'brass whistle', 'aluminium whistle', 'plastic whistle' etc.) and 'recorder' (not 'wooden recorder', 'ABS recorder', 'metal-head recorder' etc.).

*However, I'll admit to sometimes calling my baroque flute a baroque flute!

but that draws blank stares from pretty much everyone, including 99% of flute players who probably learned on Boehm system silver flutes.

'Modern flutes for traditional music'?

Yes, I know, it's still not helpful to the general public and people do call them 'Irish flutes', but I won't. 'Flute' works for me, but is awkwardly insufficient to define Terry's proposed scope.

[Mr.Gumby]

I just think 'flute' and say 'flute'

I think that's the crux of it. Although daily use is perhaps different from distinguishing the instrument in the title of an article or a project as the one discussed here, where things need to be somewhat more specific.

I don't know any players who would call their flute an 'Irish' flute. The term 'Irish flute' is I believe an American invention and one only found in the perhaps the past fifteen years and mostly on the internet to boot. Same for the similarly nonsensical 'Irish whistle' (when used for anything other than perhaps a style of playing).

Some older players used 'concert flute' or 'timber flute' occasionally, perhaps to distinguish it from the whistle (a previous generation of Irish players would use 'flute' for the whistle at times, perhaps because both instruments would be 'feadóg' in Irish).

[dunnp]

I always found the term concert flute to be a little confusing until I saw that Rudall Carte were using that term themselves up till the time they stopped making concert flutes.
See:
http://www.oldflutes.com/catalogs/RC/rc8.html
I think perhaps they used the term to distinguish from band flutes in other pitches. Note they use concert piccolo as well as opposed to Eb or F piccolos. I think the concert flute implies a D flute (or c flute in some nomenclatures).

[dunnp]

http://www.oldflutes.com/catalogs/RC2/Thumbnails.html

Another more complete catalogue using concert flute for what we play. Modern flute for what they play
And pitch named flutes and piccolos for military bandsmen.

[Terry McGee]

Correct on the "concert flute" dunnp. A flute in D as opposed to the band flute in Eb, F or Bb. Band flutes mostly in boxwood, with wide brass rings (for the polishing of by troops, Suh!), with concert flutes in cocus with silver rings and keys.

Interestingly, this expression seemed to have penetrated the earlier Irish flute world. I'm sure I remember Mico Russell referring to "play-hing a tu-en on the koh'n'sert flu-it". (I may not have got the spelling quite perfect.) Any one else with such memories?

[Mr.Gumby]

Any one else with such memories?

As I said above:

Some older players used 'concert flute' or 'timber flute' occasionally, perhaps to distinguish it from the whistle (a previous generation of Irish players would use 'flute' for the whistle at times, perhaps because both instruments would be 'feadóg' in Irish).

The usage was quite common among older musicians. Or musicianers, if you want to go speaking Micho-ese.

[Terry McGee]

So, how did this expression "concert flute" find it's way into rural Irish life? I can't see them scanning Rudall Carte catalogs. Does it precede Paul Davis? I think I remember him using the description in 1974. Or did older players use it?

[dunnp]

It’s worth noting that there were probably a lot of flute bands and band flutes all over Ireland and not just in the north. Temperance bands, parish bands, I’d guess. Lots of flute players I’ve heard talk about starting on a short flute. Bb flute or such. A good ‘concert’ flute was a commodity. They would need term to distinguish.

[Mr.Gumby]

Or did older players use it?

Yes. Older players commonly used it, well before Paul Davies.