Chiff and Fipple Forums

Thanks for adding me to the forum.

My practice D Flute has a 1 1/4 inch gap between the bottom of the F# hole and the top of the E hole. It makes playing it somewhat of a trial sometimes.

Just this week watched Matt Molloy perform on 'Se Mo Laoch' and observe he does not appear to have such a big F#-E gap on the Flute he plays.

My question then is this, which model Irish Flutes have a narrow gap between the F# and E holes.

Thanks in advance for the help.

Hi Fildafluter

(Didn't you organise a Ball some time back?)

1.25" (31.75mm) does seem quite a bit. Just reaching for my playing flute, I get 27.41mm (1.08"). A Rudall Carte original is 28.4mm, 1.12".

These relatively small differences (especially if expressed as proportions) might not seem that big, but when you are close to the end of your stretch, they can be a real issue.

Interestingly, the distance to the hole above can be part of the problem. If it's closer, it can actually make the R2-R3 stretch more difficult. Spread your fingers as you look at them, you'll see they probably like to be fairly evenly spaced. Urk! I knew we weren't designed to play flute!

My main flute a PH R&R, made in approx 1844, has from the bottom of the F# hole to the top of the E hole a distance of 23 mm.
The distance on a Olwell Pratten from the bottom of the F# hole to the top of the E hole a distance of 20 mm.
The distance on a Wilkes Rudall model, made in 2001, is a distance of 23 mm

Who made your flute Fildafluter? A distance of 31.5 mm between the bottom of the F# and the top of the E hole does indeed seem a mite excessive.

Are you sure you are not measuring the distance between the bottom of the F# hole and the bottom of the E hole?

31.5 mm is the distance I get from the bottom of the F# hole and the bottom of the E hole on my R&R and Wilkes flutes

E to F# centres

1.15" on my cheap Tony Dixon ABS one piece flute
1.25" on my Damian Thompson delrin beginner flute

D to E centres

1.75" on my Tony Dixon
1.5" on my Damian Thompson

Thank you all for the quick and accurate replies.

It appears mine is a bit of a pain to play not because the maker did not do a good job, it is really loud and sounds great, but because my hands are not suited to the hole spacings.

In particular, hi Terry McGee, yes I am aware of the 'song', my deceased Uncle sang it on occasion as he prepared his Irish shop for the day, shelving the produce; beer, beans, bananas, coffin nails, fags (Irish for cigarettes), and so on. The line that stuck with me all these years is 'Begorrah Missus Rafferty yer leppin like a hare'... NOTE to the perplexed, in Ireland there is a Rabbit like animal they call a 'Hare', about the same size and looking just like a rabbit but brown, it is often seen in the lowlands and meadows. Of note, an Irish flute beginner's reel, 'The Hare's Paw'.

I do know the maker's name, but, as my stumpy fingers is the problem not the flute, it is not fair to share it.

About my measuring technique, exactly from the top edge of the E hole to the bottom edge of the F hole, 1.25 inches, this is not a mistake. In fact at a house jam/party, a Music major Flautist so liked the thing she refused to hand it over after begging to 'have a go'. She said that of the right hand, it would be best to use the little finger to cover the E, park the 3rd, using the 2nd on F, which I found does work, but I prefer the traditional method.

Next, it appears to my stumpy fingers the most suitable model is Mr. Steampacket's Olwell Pratten, E-F 20mm spacing. But I bet I would need to get two jobs to raise the funds to purchase one. Since on retiring already bought several useless expensive paperweights, mostly guns, perhaps 'any' regular Pratten style model would do just as well?

Again, super big thanks to Terry McGee, Steampacket and Fatmac for helping.

Beware! Some Moderators and M/s Grumblies, can join to strike you off for refusing to "Squeal" on fellow fluters ...

Just sayin'

Best wishes.

keithsandra wrote:Beware! Some Moderators and M/s Grumblies, can join to strike you off for refusing to "Squeal" on fellow fluters ...

Umm... no. (said the Mod)

With stubby fingers, or small hands, you might want to think about offset holes, (makes playing easier), my Damian Thompson beginner flute has them, & they didn't cost me any extra.

Fildafluter a keyless Olwell Pratten isn't so expensive, and I think the wait for a new one is roughly a year. Why waste time time trying to adapt your fingering to play a flute with such a large spacing between the bottom of the F# and top of the E hole 31.5 mm (I.25 ins). If you get a flute with the closer spacing between the F# and E hole, which I think most flutes have, then you'll make it easier for your self and you'll be able to play other flutes too

I think even Terry McGee's spacing, between the bottom of the F# and top of the E hole, seems unnecessarily large.

Why not sell your guns and get a nice secondhand keyed Rudall or some other keyed flute with "normal" spacing with the money, or maybe you vote Republican and feel you need them?

Nanohedron wrote:

keithsandra wrote:Beware! Some Moderators and M/s Grumblies, can join to strike you off for refusing to "Squeal" on fellow fluters ...

Umm... no. (said the Mod)

Good to hear Nano ... good to hear.

Best wishes,

Keith.

Fildafluter wrote:Since on retiring already bought several useless expensive paperweights, mostly guns, perhaps 'any' regular Pratten style model would do just as well?

Just measured a Prattens original at 28mm (1.1"), so that probably answers the question in the affirmative.

We should go a little further in this discussion before you flog off the Kalashnikov though. In general, the small holed flutes have larger gap spacings, but because the holes are smaller, they are much easier to cover. Prattens, at the other end of the scale, have smaller spacings but bigger holes.

And consider this. You gave us the spacing between the inner edges of the adjacent holes. What's actually more important is the spacing between the outer edges of the adjacent holes. That's where you are having trouble, not at the inner edges. The Prattens original is 45.3mm (1.78") outside to outside.

Keep in mind too that only you know what suits you. This is why I urge players to get out and about as much as possible and swap flutes for a little while with other players. There may well be a pleasant surprise awaiting you out there somewhere!

Steampacket wrote: I think even Terry McGee's spacing, between the bottom of the F# and top of the E hole, seems unnecessarily large.

You certainly can reduce the spacing further, as your measurements suggest, but keep in mind it's a compromise. As you reduce the spacing, you have to make the lower hole smaller (making E muffled and tending flat in the 2nd octave) or the upper hole bigger (making it harder to cover), or put up with increasing tuning deviations (the usual flattened F#), or find some other trick to get around the narrow interval. This is why Boehm spat the dummy and invented his 1832 flute where he put the holes where they needed to be and ran axles to get your fingers to be able to close them.

The originals seem to have settled on surprisingly similar spacings. I'm sure they were guided by the thought "how far can we make players reach before they complain?". I think the 1.25" on Fildaflutes' flute has answered that question!

By any chance is your practice flute a cylindrical bore (like a Tipple or similar) instead of a conical (like most of the flutes people are discussing above)? If so, the spacing has to be wider... Just sayin'...

Pat

Don't know what happened there, tried an edit bang, post gone. Sorry if anybody needed any of it.
Just to clarify again, I measure the distance between the E and F# along the material length of the tube off of the bottom edge of the F# and up to the top edge of the E hole. That is, if the tube were a bridge between two watering holes I measure only the bridge not any of the watering holes.