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PostPosted: Mon Sep 17, 2018 6:54 pm 
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Richard, that is the one you sold to Mindy, correct? I have measurements of that instrument. She still plays it.

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PostPosted: Mon Sep 17, 2018 7:20 pm 
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I have a Rudall Carte with no serial number, affirmed to be legitimately Rudall Carte by Terry McGee a number of years ago. That flute has spectacular warmth and complex tone. It is a later flute with big holes and it plays well at volume as well as having the capacity for delicacy. So their golden years extended into the Rudall Carte period as far as I'm concerned. It is funny, twenty five some odd years ago I had a trial of a Rudall Carte that likely played as well as the one I have now. I was a beginner and an experienced player in town told me I'd be better off with a modern maker so it went back to Ireland. I wonder whose playing it now.


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PostPosted: Tue Sep 18, 2018 6:29 am 
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Casey Burns wrote:
Richard, that is the one you sold to Mindy, correct? I have measurements of that instrument. She still plays it.

Casey


Yes! I'm so glad she's still playing it! It's a fantastic player, still probably the best flute I've played for airs and Carolan and the like, so responsive, such a beautiful voice.

But it doesn't quite have that big Pratten "honk".

BTW I don't have any clear photos, any that show the stamps etc. Does Terry have photos of it?

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PostPosted: Fri Sep 21, 2018 6:08 am 
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"Yes! I'm so glad she's still playing it! It's a fantastic player, still probably the best flute I've played for airs and Carolan and the like, so responsive, such a beautiful voice." Richard


I'd like to include the serial number of Mindy's flute in the on-line Rudall register. I've just contacted Mindy, but if anyone here knows the serial number ...

Any other serial numbers of Rudall simple system flutes not included in the register are also welcome.

Has anyone here besides Robert seen Patsy Moloney's collection of Rudall & Rose simple system flutes, or for that matter, Michael Flaherty's collection?


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PostPosted: Fri Sep 21, 2018 3:39 pm 
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I find these old Rudall & Rose flutes to be absolutely fascinating instruments. To my knowledge, they had three tone hole sized models. I have heard rumour that there is some advertising literature that survives from the firm. Does anybody know if they made a point of promoting different "models" of simple system flutes, or were they just referred to collectively as "old system" flutes?


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PostPosted: Fri Sep 21, 2018 3:50 pm 
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Um, Thomas, I presume you mean Flatley.
I suppose, if you are cheeky enough, you might go round Castle Hyde, County Cork, when he is at home and ask to see them. It might cost you a tune or two. Knowing Kevin Henry or Seamus Tansey might not hurt as well.

ob

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PostPosted: Fri Sep 21, 2018 4:14 pm 
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Yes, my mistake Flatley, not Flaherty. I've met all three, Flatley, Henry and Tansey, in Tubbercurry, Co. Sligo, but this was before I became interested in Rudall flutes. I didn't know then that Michael had a Rudall collection.
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"I have heard rumour that there is some advertising literature that survives from the firm. Does anybody know if they made a point of promoting different "models" of simple system flutes, or were they just referred to collectively as "old system" flutes?" Uni flute


Found this the other day, a Rudall advert from 1829:

"To amateurs and professors of the flute
Messrs- Rudall and Rose whose attention has been for several years devoted to the improvement of the flute, and whose exertions have been rewarded by the approbation of the most accomplished amateurs as well as the most distinguished members of the musical profession, beg to inform the nobility and gentry that they have on hand a large stock of wood which has for some years undergone the process of seasoning ; and that they can confidently recommend the instruments made from this well-prepared material, as being secure against any injury from the distillation of the breath, or the vicissitudes of climate. – No. 15, Piazza, Covent-Garden.

Among the numerous improvements which have of late years distinguished musical science, it may be mentioned that Messrs. Rudall and Rose, of Covent-Garden, have brought the flute to a state of perfection, which leaves nothing more to be desired. In point of power and brilliancy of tone, in the extreme neatness and elegance of their mechanical properties, but more particularly in their well known capability of withstanding the changes of all climates, their flutes surpass anything of the kind that has hitherto been offered for public approbation and support.”


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PostPosted: Sat Sep 22, 2018 6:47 am 
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Steampacket wrote:
Yes, my mistake Flatley, not Flaherty. I've met all three, Flatley, Henry and Tansey, in Tubbercurry, Co. Sligo, but this was before I became interested in Rudall flutes. I didn't know then that Michael had a Rudall collection.
Quote:
"I have heard rumour that there is some advertising literature that survives from the firm. Does anybody know if they made a point of promoting different "models" of simple system flutes, or were they just referred to collectively as "old system" flutes?" Uni flute


Found this the other day, a Rudall advert from 1829:

"To amateurs and professors of the flute
Messrs- Rudall and Rose whose attention has been for several years devoted to the improvement of the flute, and whose exertions have been rewarded by the approbation of the most accomplished amateurs as well as the most distinguished members of the musical profession, beg to inform the nobility and gentry that they have on hand a large stock of wood which has for some years undergone the process of seasoning ; and that they can confidently recommend the instruments made from this well-prepared material, as being secure against any injury from the distillation of the breath, or the vicissitudes of climate. – No. 15, Piazza, Covent-Garden.

Among the numerous improvements which have of late years distinguished musical science, it may be mentioned that Messrs. Rudall and Rose, of Covent-Garden, have brought the flute to a state of perfection, which leaves nothing more to be desired. In point of power and brilliancy of tone, in the extreme neatness and elegance of their mechanical properties, but more particularly in their well known capability of withstanding the changes of all climates, their flutes surpass anything of the kind that has hitherto been offered for public approbation and support.”


Thank you for sharing that advertisement Thomas, it seems the firm were incredibly confident in their wares. However, I feel I may have to politely disagree on "their well known capability of withstanding the changes of all climates." The un-restored ones we see for sale today more likely have a crack to head and barrel than not. Unless of course, some of their competitors did not season their wood correctly, and their instruments cracked at the drop of a hat.

If only the lost ledger recording the serial numbers were to be found again, there would be so much wonderful information.


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PostPosted: Sat Sep 22, 2018 8:05 am 
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Castle Hyde, County Cork, when he is at home


Is he still there at all? The place has been up for sale for, what is it, several years at least.

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PostPosted: Sat Sep 22, 2018 11:12 am 
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Thank you for sharing that advertisement Thomas, it seems the firm were incredibly confident in their wares. However, I feel I may have to politely disagree on "their well known capability of withstanding the changes of all climates." The un-restored ones we see for sale today more likely have a crack to head and barrel than not. Unless of course, some of their competitors did not season their wood correctly, and their instruments cracked at the drop of a hat. If only the lost ledger recording the serial numbers were to be found again, there would be so much wonderful information.
Uniflute

The first Rudall I bought from a G&H auction has no cracks at all. It was made in 1891. Another flute made in 1844, which has both a patent head and a standard head had cracks in both head joints as it had been stored in a wardrobe for donkeys years, in Richmond, London, in it's case, but I assume subjected to a modern environment of gas fires, central heating and triple glass windows. In Victorian England I suspect that most houses were not so well insulated, sash windows, often damp, which meant perhaps better living conditions for wooden flutes. I wonder if Rudall & Rose ever expected their flutes to last over 170 years and more?

I don't know if it is true or not, but I've been told that there exists a a chart of all the Rudall flutes Paul Davis bought and sold. Perhaps a ledger, or the ledgers with Rudall simple system serial numbers do exist somewhere. The original Gibson guitar serial number ledgers from 1958-1960 which include the Les Paul Standard serial numbers that are of great interest are also missing.


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PostPosted: Sat Sep 22, 2018 1:49 pm 
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The housing conditions of Victorian London certainly were very different from what we have today, I've read that gas central heating has the effect of greatly reducing the humidity of a house and can cause a lot of cracks. Luckily, the U.K. is a temperate climate, without excessive natural swings in humidity or levels of temperature, despite it getting a bit dodgy this summer just past. I think a lot of things built in the past were "built to last" well before today's disposable culture was even conceived. The firm moved with the times, and embraced the Boehm system flute, with various permutations, such as Carte's 1851 and 1867 Patent flutes, and the Radcliffe system flute. Even George Rudall himself adopted the Boehm flute at the age of 62. I was unaware of Paul Davies' list of simple system Rudall flutes, I imagine it would make for very interesting reading.

Regarding the absence of Gibson's ledgers from the years of 1958-1960, would that be the exact period covering their most expensive vintage electric guitars? I believe that fewer than 2000 sunburst Les Pauls were made, and only 10'000 survived :)


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PostPosted: Mon Sep 24, 2018 4:47 am 
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Uni Flute wrote:
I feel I may have to politely disagree on "their well known capability of withstanding the changes of all climates." The un-restored ones we see for sale today more likely have a crack to head and barrel than not.


The c1830 one I had was crack-free, both the wood and the elegant ivory bands. We would have to ask the current owner, but I'm guessing that it's still crack-free today, 190 years after being made.

I've noticed over the years that at least with Highland pipes wood cracking seems to be mostly about how the players treats the instrument, and not about the instrument itself.

I've owned a number of vintage pipes which were crack-free when I bought them and stayed crack-free the time I played them, including in the rain, in the hot sun, in all the conditions a Highland piper subjects his instrument to. But when I sold these pipes to other pipers they would develop a crack within a few months. It amazes me. What are these people doing to their instruments that I'm not doing?

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PostPosted: Mon Sep 24, 2018 5:00 am 
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Uni Flute wrote:
I believe that fewer than 2000 sunburst Les Pauls were made, and only 10,000 survived...


It's like that with Highland pipes! The famous maker Peter Henderson went into business in 1880 and a large number of his pipes from earlier periods survive. I've seen Hendersons from the pre-1850 period, which he made before he was born.

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PostPosted: Mon Sep 24, 2018 9:44 am 
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pancelticpiper wrote:
It's like that with Highland pipes! The famous maker Peter Henderson went into business in 1880 and a large number of his pipes from earlier periods survive. I've seen Hendersons from the pre-1850 period, which he made before he was born.

It should be noted that those in utero Hendersons, while not as refined as those produced in grammar school, are highly prized among collectors.

Best wishes.

Steve

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PostPosted: Wed Sep 26, 2018 7:39 am 
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I don't think there was a "golden age" as regards the playability of Rudall simple system flutes. As far as I know the flutes were made by Rose in the early years, then Henry Wylde joined the firm Rudall & Rose. In 1835 Wylde started his own business as a flute maker, also doing work for Rudall & Rose. Rose died in 1866 aged 71/72 so he perhaps stopped working a few years before he died? Wylde died in 1882. William Camp worked for Rudall until 1840, then took over Card's workshop. Camp died in 1879. Alfred Binyon died in 1852 although I'm not sure if he also did piece work for Rudall as did Camp, Imlay, Ingram, Payne, and H. Whitaker?

I don't know which craftsmen/women made my RC&Co. 7103 in 1891, 10-11 years after Wylde's demise in 1882, but I think it's as good a flute as my earlier Rudalls made approx. 1842-1844 as regards playability. Cosmetically and technically, in my opinion, these earlier Rudalls I have are nicer, as they have silver keys, silver fittings, and patent heads. I'm a patent head fan.


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