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PostPosted: Fri Jun 15, 2018 3:36 pm 
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Hello folks,

I'd been thinking about Rudall & Rose flutes with the past couple of threads recently on the topic and wondered if there was a period of production which was viewed as the "golden years?" With other instruments, there is a clear set of dates for what could be termed the "pinnacle of success" the most famous probably being 1958-1960 for Les Paul Standards. I was wondering if anyone would have any input for the best years of Rudall production, as I recall reading about certain spans of serial serial numbers or addresses being particularly highly regarded. This can also include; "Rudall Rose & Carte" and "Rudall Carte & Co."


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PostPosted: Sat Jun 16, 2018 3:40 am 
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Had an interesting talk with Sam Murray and he was of the opinion that some Rudalls were certainly better than others, but he didn't specify certain batches of serial numbers. My better half has perfect pitch and says that the RC&Co. 7103 is the best flute I play, as regards tuning and tone. I like to play R&R 4871 as I like the heft (patent head, silver keys, rings) and tone of the flute. I suspect it's all in the ear of the beholder.


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PostPosted: Sat Jun 16, 2018 7:42 am 
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I feel you are quite right in the assertion that most of a flute's tonal qualities are in the ear of the beholder, and it can be difficult for listeners to discern the difference between flutes. As the course of the 19th Century wore on, the intonation of simple system flutes did generally improve, with less of the flat foot and sharp As and Bs which are quite typical for earlier instruments. I find it interesting that you prefer the tone of Rudall 4871, even though your partner reckons 7103 has better intonation.
I wonder if there are any discernible differences between earlier Rudalls built in house, and later ones, possibly outsourced from other companies?


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PostPosted: Sat Jun 16, 2018 5:41 pm 
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We do have some rough idea of when the company's period of peak production was, and it surprisingly early. (These figures relate only to simple system flutes, and do not include later flute types.) It coincides with the patent for the Patent Head, and Boehm's early conical flute. A lot going on around then....

Image

More info at http://www.mcgee-flutes.com/conclusions.html


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PostPosted: Sun Jun 17, 2018 5:05 am 
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Thank you Terry for sharing your research into the productivity figures for Rudall & Rose simple system flutes. These graphs are a great method of sharing a lot of detailed information at a glance. The introduction of Boehm flutes around 1850 seems to have dealt a serious blow to the production figures of simple system flutes.
I believe that later serial numbered simple system flutes were sometimes made outside of the Rudall workshop by other suppliers, some of whom were former employees. I wonder if anyone had any idea of when this practice may have begun, and if there are any discernible differences between flutes that were bought in and ones that were made "in house."


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PostPosted: Mon Jun 18, 2018 3:59 am 
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Am I correct in assuming that during the early years, all Rudall & Rose flutes were made "in house"?


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PostPosted: Fri Jun 22, 2018 10:58 am 
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Uni Flute wrote:
Am I correct in assuming that during the early years, all Rudall & Rose flutes were made "in house"?


Just to stir the pot... My assumption would actually be the opposite. Namely, that flutes were originally made by other makers and as the business grew the makers and production were brought "in-house".

Per Terry McGee's page on Rudall, Rose, Carte & Co (http://www.mcgee-flutes.com/Rudall.html) :

Quote:
George Rudall was born in 1781 and died in 1871. He left the army in or around 1820 and took up teaching the flute in London. At first, Rudall supplied his students with instruments bearing his name, but these were actually made for him by the flutemaker Willis who resided in Clement's Inn. In 1821 Rudall formed a partnership with Edinburgh flute maker John Mitchell Rose and in 1850 Richard Carte joined the firm.


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PostPosted: Fri Jun 22, 2018 12:17 pm 
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Does anyone know the role of Wylde, who I have heard may have been involved with Rudall & Rose, and possibly with Fentum, as well? I have tried to research him, but haven’t had any luck.


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PostPosted: Fri Jun 22, 2018 12:30 pm 
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I played a R&R for many years which was stamped with the address said to correspond to the years 1827-1837.

It was boxwood with ivory rings and silver keys.

It was a fantastic player. If that wasn't their "golden years" then their golden years were sublime!

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PostPosted: Fri Jun 22, 2018 12:45 pm 
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jjdura wrote:
Does anyone know the role of Wylde, who I have heard may have been involved with Rudall & Rose, and possibly with Fentum, as well? I have tried to research him, but haven’t had any luck.

Ay-yi-yi, you're late to the game.

You might want to first look at these prior threads, in which mention of Wylde appears, though not always a quality search hit:

Threads, in Ascending Order:
search.php?keywords=Wylde&terms=all&author=&sc=1&sf=all&sk=t&sd=a&sr=topics&st=0&ch=300&t=0&submit=Search


OR Posts, in Ascending Order:
search.php?keywords=Wylde&terms=all&author=&sc=1&sf=all&sk=t&sd=a&sr=posts&st=0&ch=1000&t=0&submit=Search

If Jon C. had his way, he'd probably attribute most R&R flutes to Wylde.

But yeah, he was involved, working for Rudall & Rose, also marking flutes under his own name.

Here's Terry McGee's page on workers:
http://www.mcgee-flutes.com/Ruddal%20Workers.htm

BTW, you might also want to research Ingram & Morland.

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PostPosted: Fri Jun 22, 2018 5:59 pm 
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kkrell wrote:
Ay-yi-yi, you're late to the game


I guess I am a little late. I also have to learn how to search this forum.

Thank you for your help with these searches, I am deeply in your debt.

John


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PostPosted: Sun Jun 24, 2018 3:40 am 
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AaronFW wrote:
Uni Flute wrote:
Am I correct in assuming that during the early years, all Rudall & Rose flutes were made "in house"?


Just to stir the pot... My assumption would actually be the opposite. Namely, that flutes were originally made by other makers and as the business grew the makers and production were brought "in-house".

Per Terry McGee's page on Rudall, Rose, Carte & Co (http://www.mcgee-flutes.com/Rudall.html) :

Quote:
George Rudall was born in 1781 and died in 1871. He left the army in or around 1820 and took up teaching the flute in London. At first, Rudall supplied his students with instruments bearing his name, but these were actually made for him by the flutemaker Willis who resided in Clement's Inn. In 1821 Rudall formed a partnership with Edinburgh flute maker John Mitchell Rose and in 1850 Richard Carte joined the firm.


George Rudall initially had his flutes made by Willis, and John Mitchell Rose originally had his own workshop in Edinburgh, so when the company was formed, it could be said that George Rudall and John Mitchell Rose came "in house" leaving Willis to continue as an independent maker. During the company's existence, employees such as Wylde left R&R and set up their own businesses, and they are believed to have supplied some flutes back to their previous employers, but the exact details are murky. Surviving workshop records for Rudall, Carte & Co. from 1869 show definitively that Wylde was supplying that company with flutes.

pancelticpiper, thank you for sharing you experience with a Rudall & Rose from 1827-1837. As of yet, there is no consensus for which years represent the very best in terms of quality for Rudall & Rose. I was wondering if people had noticed any differences in Rudall & Rose flutes made before the advent of the Boehm flute, and after, such as simple system flutes from Rudall & Carte.


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PostPosted: Fri Jun 29, 2018 7:35 am 
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The player will have more influence than the flute and you’d have to play quite a sample to generalise. I have a very early (c1821) R&R that I think is great across its range (if possibly a bit low pitched) but I use a replacement head as the original embouchure is either a bit rough or has been reworked (less eliptical and not much undercut). I had a much later RCC standard model (c1876) bought in from Wylde’s workshop that also sang beautifully, in a slightly thinner way (with a more elliptical undercut embouchure).

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PostPosted: Sat Jun 30, 2018 12:40 pm 
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I play a lot on a R&R 5035 from 1844 and a RC&C 7103 from 1892. As MarkP wrote I also think the flute player is the biggest factor. I sound like myself on whatever flute I play. Both flutes are easy to play I find. As said before the RC&Co 7103 plays well and in tune with itself at A=440 with the head joint pulled out around 17-18 mm. The R&R 5035 also plays well and in tune and in tune with it self at A=440 with the head joint pulled out around 15-16 mm. I have the head joint turned in on my flutes.


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PostPosted: Mon Sep 17, 2018 5:00 pm 
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Sorry to revive this thread but I just found a photo of the R&R I played for many years.

Image

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