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PostPosted: Mon Jun 18, 2018 3:58 am 
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As a general rule, a Rudall with a patent head should be worth more than one without. If someone who knows about flutes is selling one, they may ask considerably more for a Rudall with a patent head than for one without. If one is put up for auction, then the price may be more variable, depending on the detail of the listing itself and who is looking at the time.
I am aware that these patent headjoints are heavier than an ordinary head, and some find that this can effect the overall balance of an 8 key flute, making it more top heavy. If I am correct, Jem Hammond notes this change in balance is not a problem on Rudalls with extra keys, such as a Bb foot.


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PostPosted: Mon Jun 18, 2018 5:19 am 
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From what I've seen over the years, Patent Heads have generally been seen by ITM players as undesirable and a disincentive to buy the instrument, whatever its condition. When ITM players were the main market for R&Rs a PH example was probably worth less than a plain head one. A flute collector might take a different view in that PHs are less common, though they're not exactly rare. But nowadays for the most part none of the three main potential markets for mid C19th English 8-key flutes - collectors, ITM players or period instrument classical players (and those last were never much interested) are strong or lively, and I doubt the PH has much influence on value. I view the recent GH auction result as rather a surprise and as erratic in the current market. Like Steampacket, I have bought R&Rs and seen others sold for significantly less in recent years. I did manage to sell a very nice, fully restored later RC&Co. with GS fittings for c£2k a couple of years ago, but I had to be patient to get a sale, as readers may remember.

Should a R&R like the GH auction one, once restored, be worth £3,500-ish? Absolutely. Would it sell for that these days? Very doubtful.

Currently on eBay, repeatedly, there's a very fine Rivière &Hawkes 8-keyer being sold by Dom Allan, sometime of this parish. He's dropped the price from a very reasonable £1k down to £500 (about what one of Casey's keyless flutes costs imported to GB) and it still isn't going. Those are stonking good flutes and it would serve a trad fluter far better than a keyless by a top modern maker, but no-one seems to want it. Sad.

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PostPosted: Mon Jun 18, 2018 6:42 am 
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I like Rudall patent heads and see them as an interesting piece of pre-Victorian engineering. One flute I have came with both a working patent head, and a standard head joint, it cost £1200 ($1593). Another with a patent working head joint cost £1500 ($1991). They cost extra when new, but as Jem said they don't seem to increase the value of the flute per se these days, but they are a nice old fashioned touch I think. They make the flute heavier, but I don't find that to be a problem, and the flute I use has a good bottom D. It doesn't leak, has new pads from Jon Dodd. I believe Patsy Moloney usually plays a Rudall with a patent head. There may be others too


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PostPosted: Mon Jun 18, 2018 10:42 am 
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I went to the G&H auction and bid for the Rudall & Rose but I dropped out long before the final bid. I made the mistake of taking my wife who doesn't share my enthusiasm for flutes.

R&R 4417 was part of a collection of many musical instruments in the estate of Maurice Byrne F.S.A who died 1st Sep 1916 age 76. Maurice was a member of the Galpin Society for most of his life, was editor of the society's Journal and contributed several articles. He kept a card index of his instruments which is now in the Galpin Society archives. I contacted the archivist who kindly sent me the following information :

Maurice Byrne’s card index was handwritten by him with notes when he acquired an instrument. His widow is happy for new owners to be informed of his card notes.
His card for the Rudall & Rose flute has:
• Simple system, silver keys & end plate, no box.
• Automatic adjustment of cover position when extending instrument.
• 1959 (presumably bought then)
• Repaired by Michael Wright 1969
• Knight, Bath
• 4417?
• Also its inscription: Rudall & Rose No. 1 Tavistock Street Covent Garden London


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PostPosted: Mon Jun 18, 2018 6:25 pm 
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If he died in 1916, his widow is especially long-lived. :boggle:

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PostPosted: Mon Jun 18, 2018 11:06 pm 
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I'm in agreement with those who feel the Patent head is more a liability than an asset, these days. For the reasons stated - too heavy, prone to problems and unnecessary, post modern pitch being stabilised at or around A 440. And prevents you from finding the ideal stopper position for your lip and your music.

I'm also in agreement with those who feel it's a beaut bit of 19th century engineering! But the more I think upon it, the less I think it was a well-applied bit of 19th century engineering.

The problem it was intended to address is keeping the stopper in the optimum place as the pitch was tweaked wildly, presumably between the afternoon tea party set (playing along with Lady Astor's Broadwood, tuned circa 430Hz), and those brash young bucks from the Philo, hammering away at the newly introduced High Pitch, circa 453-455Hz. Engaged for both gigs? Too easy, a few twists of the wrist and the flute is brought into tune at the other pitch, and the stopper relocated for best performance, long before the hansom cab gets to the concert venue.

But that ignores the real problem of pushing a flute over the range of less than 430 to more than 454 - the needed change in body scaling. Earlier in the baroque, we saw flutes with up to 5 or more corps de réchange - central sections of differing lengths to fiddle the body scaling to work at different pitches. That was the right way to do the job, but expensive in keyed flutes.

I am intrigued by a drawing of an 8-key flute with what appears to be three sets of tuning slides - one between head and LH section, one at junction of LH and RH sections, and the third between RH section and foot. That would be a way of adjusting the scale length of the flute! What makes it relevant to this discussion is that the drawing appears on Rose's patent for the Boehm flute, lodged by him "on behalf of a foreigner (Boehm) residing abroad". Here's the central section of that drawing:

Image

(More at http://www.mcgee-flutes.com/Rose1847patent.htm)

Given this comes 25 years after the Patent Head patent, perhaps it suggests Rose is having second thoughts?

I wonder if he ever made one?


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PostPosted: Tue Jun 19, 2018 1:44 am 
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Kevin, Maurice Byrne was born in 1940 and died 2016, not 1916.


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PostPosted: Tue Jun 19, 2018 5:10 am 
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It seems that Maurice had many diverse interests including archaeology and his archaeological artifacts will be coming up for auction at Gardiner & Houlgate in a couple of weeks.

The repair to the R&R by Michael Wright in 1969 was no doubt the long F block replacement. The cracks & short F block damage must have occurred since then.

Does anyone know who or what Knight, Bath is ? Possibly the shop where he bought the flute ?


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PostPosted: Tue Jun 19, 2018 10:30 am 
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Michael Wright is a member of The Galpin Society and has written an interesting article in The Galpin Society Journal together with Robert Bigo: On reaming flutes, May, 2005. If Michael is still alive, he perhaps would know more about "Knight, Bath"? Maybe Robert would also know?
https://www.jstor.org/stable/25163825?o ... b_contents


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PostPosted: Tue Jun 19, 2018 11:39 am 
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I feel strange commenting on this as I am a mere Colonial, but I believe this is an Order of Chivalry. It would mean he is a Knight of the Order of the Bath. He could style himself as 'Sir' showing he has distinguished himself in some endeavor (endeavour) and has been duly recognized by the Queen.

Bob

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PostPosted: Thu Jun 21, 2018 3:19 pm 
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Steampacket wrote:
Regarding the serial number of the R&R in G&H's auction on 15th June. After manipulating the G&H photos and comparing the numerals in the photo of the serial number with the numerals in the serial number on my own R&R 4871 I am certain the serial number is 4147, not 4417.


you'd be wrong. But that wouldn't be the first time. :thumbsup:


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PostPosted: Fri Jun 22, 2018 4:58 am 
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"you'd be wrong. But that wouldn't be the first time."

Have no fear of perfection, you'll never reach it :poke:


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