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PostPosted: Thu May 31, 2018 4:05 am 
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Rudall & Rose cocuswood eight key flute, with patent head, silver keys, pewter Eb in the coming G&H auction the 15th of June. Lot no. 907. Don't have the serial number yet. The flute looks to be in fine condition. From what can be seen, the head joint and barrel don't appear to be cracked, but as there is only one photo it's possible there is a crack on the back of the head joint?
https://www.gardinerhoulgate.co.uk/Cata ... ge017.html


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PostPosted: Thu Jun 07, 2018 1:40 pm 
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I queried the condition of the R&R with Gardiner Houlgate & received the following reply. It's an interesting spelling of Tavistock. I presume it is the auctioneer's misreading.

Lot Number: 907 There will be no VAT on sale hammer price.

Description
Eight-keyed rosewood flute by Rudall & Rose, London, c1830, silver mounts and keys, patent head-joint, sounding length 577mm Condition Report Key blocks of long F key repaired. Head joint and barrel both with long open cracks. There is a crack running the length of the head joint and a crack running the entire length of the barrel joint. All keys are very tarnished and would likely re-padding. Stamped 'Rudall & Rose, London' to the barrel and lower two joints, the middle joint is stamped Rudall & Rose Taverstock Street, Covent Garden, London, 4117. If sold within the UK there will be no Cites restrictions although if the flute is to be exported outside of the EU there will be.

Estimate: £1500-2500 Currency: GBP - UK Pound


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PostPosted: Thu Jun 07, 2018 3:08 pm 
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Thanks Alan. I think besides the spelling of Tavistock, they have the serial number wrong too. Rudall & Rose 4117 is a 9 key flute "Small-holed Rudall and Rose 4117 in cocus, with 9 sterling keys, including LH and RH touch Bb. Original head has sterling lip plate, and sockets are lined with sterling cups. Comes with an original case in poor condition. It was completely overhauled by Terry McGee 3 years ago. ..."


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PostPosted: Thu Jun 07, 2018 4:08 pm 
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In the pictures GH sent me you can clearly see the cracks and the state of the keys. The long F block has been glued & doesn't look particularly well done to me. Also GH forgot to mention that there's a piece missing out of the short F block & the pin is exposed. Unfortunately there's not enough detail to read the stamps.


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PostPosted: Thu Jun 07, 2018 5:52 pm 
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That typo for Tavistock is almost certainly a typist's error working from dictated audio. It won't be the stamp spelling!

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PostPosted: Fri Jun 08, 2018 12:07 pm 
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4117 resides with a player in Canada and was once owned by our own Arbo on this board, fwiw.

based on the details of my research, the likely serial number, considering the style of the flute and its patent head, is possibly 4107 or even more likely 4112. Perhaps as high as 44xx or so.


a perfectly fine Rudall that might need some overhaul and a new headjoint......
the tragedy is it's labeled as rosewood and that makes the CITES people stand up.
too bad.


Last edited by RudallRose on Mon Jun 11, 2018 12:02 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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PostPosted: Mon Jun 11, 2018 12:01 pm 
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for those who care.....the actual serial number (be sure to copy this down!)....is 4417.

It is the same flute from the batch that is 4411, in the Dayton Miller collection, which has a patent and regular headpiece.
https://www.loc.gov/resource/dcmflute.0365.0

A number of large-holed Rudalls with Patent Heads appear in the serial number sequences that follow these, according to my research.

With some work, it will likely be a very nice player.


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PostPosted: Tue Jun 12, 2018 4:07 am 
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Regarding the serial number of the R&R in G&H's auction on 15th June. After manipulating the G&H photos and comparing the numerals in the photo of the serial number with the numerals in the serial number on my own R&R 4871 I am certain the serial number is 4147, not 4417.


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PostPosted: Fri Jun 15, 2018 5:03 am 
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Sold for £2500.00 hammer price, plus auction costs. Not bad for the current market.


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PostPosted: Fri Jun 15, 2018 5:42 am 
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"Sold for £2500.00 hammer price, plus auction costs. Not bad for the current market." Uniflute.

Indeed, these fine old flutes are great value for the money


Last edited by Steampacket on Sat Jun 16, 2018 3:05 am, edited 1 time in total.

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PostPosted: Fri Jun 15, 2018 1:47 pm 
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I did the math to convert it to dollars:

2500 GBP plus 27.6 VAT and fees divided by .75 (the current exchange rate with US Dollars) is $4253. I noticed on this one a few broken blocks, one apparently re-glued (long F) and the other missing wood.

Am now rethinking what I will want to sell this relatively pristine RR&C that has been Nicholsonized for. Am doing this for a friend.

Casey

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PostPosted: Sat Jun 16, 2018 3:03 am 
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There is no V.A.T. on this flute Casey, only the buyer's premium which is 24%. So £2500 plus £625 = £3125 ($4146).

The glued long F block, and wood missing from the short F block seem to be cosmetic as long as the glued block is stable. No problem to polish the silver keys and rings and put on new pads.

The cracked patent head joint and barrel is a more complicated repair, but as the crack is not through the embouchure, the flute should play fine if the crack on the barrel is taped on the inside of the socket to stop air leaking between the socket and tenon. I have a patent head, with this type of crack on the back of the patent head and barrel, that plays fine with tape on the inside of the barrel socket.


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PostPosted: Sat Jun 16, 2018 4:04 am 
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This one has sold for rather more than quite a few over the last couple of years. If it's the start of a trend of values going back up towards what they were a decade ago, or closer to new-made 6+ key "Irish" flutes from good makers, I certainly welcome that. But one swallow does not a summer make. Casey, of course this sale does have valuation implications, but just because this one pulled a decent price unrestored (at an auction, where two stubborn bidders can easily inflate a result) doesn't mean you can readily find a buyer for a wonderful instrument in top ready to play condition at a retail price projected from this sale. Things used to work that way, but it's hit and miss if they do now. I'd love to see the market revive, more players choose these fine old flutes over new ones......

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PostPosted: Sun Jun 17, 2018 4:56 am 
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I'll second what Jem says regarding appropriate value for these flutes. They should be worth far more than a modern reproduction just on the basis of originality/age alone. Also, Cocuswood is effectively a near unobtainable hardwood these days, and if you're lucky enough to acquire some, it's highly unlikely to be of the same grade/age/quality as the wood which was available to the original craftsmen of the 19th Century. Unlike modern Irish flutes, these come in a far greater variety of specifications regarding tone hole size, bore profiles, embouchure cuts, rare (tried and tested) hardwoods, etc. The original flutes were designed to play over a range of three octaves, unlike the modern ones, which generally are made to cover the first two.


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PostPosted: Sun Jun 17, 2018 12:59 pm 
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Well, above $4000 was my point - not the exact estimate.

Question: do people think the patent heads add value or subtract value to these, in terms of playability etc. The few that I have seen and in some instances repaired seemed more of a liability to the flute especially for its playing qualities. Too much metal stuffed up the bore perhaps, being prone to leaks, etc. Plus I have found that plug positions are sometimes highly individual.

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