An old flute - to mess or not to mess

[Hazel Q]

Hi. A friend asked me to have a look at a flute he has to see if it would work. It had belonged to his great grandfather. I started to research, as I thought it looks like it might valuable, so didn't like to fiddle with it. I think it probably dates somewhere between 1878 and 1890-ish. I'm only an amateur self taught flautist, and don't know much about flutes other than the modern flute of today, and I don't understand the different key structure on this one. It does sort of work, but some of the springs seem to be weak and not do their job properly. This flute is made by Rudall, Carte and Co, and is engraved with the address as 23 Berners Street, Oxford Street, London which is why I think it must have been made after 1878, and it is also engraved with Carte & Boehm's system combined. I don't know if I've understood the serial numbering correctly, but this one is engraved with 1729. I did come across a picture of a similar one with a serial number past 2,000 that was noted as 'circa 1891' - hence why I think it was made pre-1890, but as mentioned, I may have misunderstood the serial numbering format, which looks complicated. Can anyone advise if I'm on the right track with dating? I've taken some photos and hope these links work. Sorry I'm not all that IT savvy either - https://photos.google.com/photo/AF1QipM ... daXFOio1CG https://photos.google.com/photo/AF1QipM ... JlEHDLZPQB https://photos.google.com/photo/AF1QipN ... RiKH6dHTy6

[Peter Duggan]

Your links are broken so the photos won't show. But old Rudall Cartes were great flutes and still command healthy prices if they play at modern pitch (generally less so for high pitch except for genuine rarities). There are specialist restorers like Arthur Haswell and also knowledgeable people on this forum like Jem Hammond (jemtheflute) who may be able to advise.

[jim stone]

Second Peter. I'd mess with it.

[an seanduine]

Go to Terry McGee's website. He has some measurements to roughly determine if an instrument is capable of modern pitch. If it is not High Pitch, go for it!
Bob.

[Hazel Q]

Thank you for your reply Peter. After searching through pages of google results, I've found a picture online of a flute that looks exactly the same, including the floral engraved bands round the headjoint, though no serial number is mentioned. However, I think this (price) says it needs professional service/overhaul. I've replaced pads and springs on my own clarinet which I've had from school days, but I think that is much simpler, and of course this one isn't mine! Hopefully, this link may work. https://picclick.it/Beautiful-Rudall-Ca ... id=1&pid=2

[Peter Duggan]

Second Peter. I'd mess with it.

I wasn't suggesting 'messing' with it, but rather considering work by someone more experienced at these things.

Go to Terry McGee's website. He has some measurements to roughly determine if an instrument is capable of modern pitch.Bob.

Does Terry have measurements for Boehms?

If it is not High Pitch, go for it!

It could still be interesting as High Pitch, but not enough info here yet to tell.

[jim stone]

If you are in the states Dave Copley is actually a good resource,
and very helpful. Our Jon Cornia does a lot of work on old flutes.

[Steampacket]

Hazel seems like the flute you speak of is like this one on E-bay? :

https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/Rudall-Carte ... SwLq5atAcd

Your flute was made in 1888 according to Bigo's serial number chart. A metal Boehm system, Rudall Carte & Co. cylinder flute. I'd let a woodwind repair shop repad, check the springs, and service the flute so that it is in good playing condition.

The above flute on E-bay has a starting bid of £51. There are a couple of others on E-bay with a buy it now price of £1200 and £1195

[busterbill]

This looks like a flute that would be of value to a player or collector, though not necessarily a player of Irish Trad. But it does have historical value. Jem Hammond and/or John Cornia would be a good place to start to see what the value might be. It does not have to be restored to be salable if that is your desire. If you chose to restore it to play it they would be good resources to see who how and where that may happen. This site doesn't seem to like to talk price in the forums, but you can get their pm them to get those sorts of questions answered. This is definitely not a do it yourself experiment flute.

[Peter Duggan]

Hazel seems like the flute you speak of is like this one on E-bay?

That's an 1867 system, which Old Flutes suggests tallies with the engraving 'Carte & Boehm's system combined', but still a pity we can't see the photos!

The eBay flute is also high pitch (as the one described here seems likely to be?), so will be attracting high-pitch-valued bids.

[jemtheflute]

If the key system is exactly like the other one you linked, then it is indeed a Carte 1867 system. I'm sure Steampacket has given you the correct dating info. If you can measure and tell us the sounding length (centre of embouchure to foot end), we can tell you what reference pitch it is designed to play at. It is almost certainly high pitch, unless it was rebuilt to modern pitch by Rudall Carte in the interwar years of the C20th. I'd need to see some detailed photos to say any more. If it is high pitch, although it would play beautifully in its own right if fully restored, it wouldn't be much practical use. IMO, based on long observation of the market, unrestored and high pitch it might be worth in the £250-350 region; fully restored and playable, in the £350-550 bracket. If it has been properly converted for modern A440 pitch, you can multiply those figures by about 3. These are beautiful but not particularly rare instruments with very limited appeal these days, even to collectors. The fingering system is superb, however - much better than the standard Böhm system.

[Peter Duggan]

Thank you for your reply Peter. After searching through pages of google results, I've found a picture online of a flute that looks exactly the same, including the floral engraved bands round the headjoint, though no serial number is mentioned. However, I think this (price) says it needs professional service/overhaul. I've replaced pads and springs on my own clarinet which I've had from school days, but I think that is much simpler, and of course this one isn't mine! Hopefully, this link may work. https://picclick.it/Beautiful-Rudall-Ca ... id=1&pid=2

Definitely 1867 system, then... and, sorry, didn't see this post before (presumably because it was waiting to be approved and didn't appear at time of posting).

It is almost certainly high pitch, unless it was rebuilt to modern pitch by Rudall Carte in the interwar years of the C20th.

It's metal, Jem... did they ever rebuild the metal ones like the wood?

(Hazel Q, they used to take the keywork off the high-pitch bodies and re-use it for longer bodies.)

[jemtheflute]

I haven’t that I recall actually seen a re-bodied to lower pitch metal RC&Co. flute, and the 1936 pamphlet offering pitch conversion which is illustrated in Robert Bigio's book (p151) does only offer the service for wood and Ebonite bodies. There's no absolute reason why it can't be done with metal flutes, though, even though the straps on which the mechanism is mounted are soldered on rather than screwed as they are to wood. But maybe they thought the extra faff not worth the candle.

[Hazel Q]

Hello all. I'm so sorry, I didn't realise I had all these replies - the first 2 I received an email to notify me, and hadn't realised more had been added, so I do apologise for not responding sooner, and thank you all for your replies.

Jemtheflute, I'd returned the flute to it's owner, but have checked for the measurement, which from the middle of the embouchure to the end is 576mm. Having checked Terry McGee's websiste, as suggested by Bob, it looks to me like it probably is therefore a high-pitch, as suggested. It is exactly like the one in the link I posted, with the same engraved cylindrical section (rather than lip plate) for the embouchure, and the keys are also the same with a double key mechanism on the back (whereas there is just the one - B key on modern day flutes).
Jim Stone, thank you for your input, but we are in the UK.
Steampacket, yes it is like the one on your link...
My friend believes his grandfather would have bought it sometime around the time he went to Heidelberg University to study music, so with a date of 1888, he must have bought it new and been the sole owner.