changing value of a flute after crack

[bepoq]

Hi All,

I'm trying to get a sense of the drop in value of a top level flute once it has cracked.

I have a two key Wilkes Bb, whose headjoint has cracked, approaching the embouchure (I've stabilized it).

I have a Rudall and Rose whose headjoint has cracked.

Each of these flutes was put in jeopardy by the gig I play, so I will be approaching them (they have insurance) about reimbursement. I'd be particularly interested and grateful for as objective as possible responses from those who deal in flutes/keep a close eye on the market, though, of course the anthropologist in me is also just generally interested in subjective responses and how people perceive value and change and damage.

best all,

Ben

[Nanohedron]

Each of these flutes was put in jeopardy by the gig I play, so I will be approaching them (they have insurance) about reimbursement.

I'm curious about this. Usually cracking has to do with humidification issues, or age. This gig you speak of sounds more like a contact sport.

...of course the anthropologist in me is also just generally interested in subjective responses and how people perceive value and change and damage.

I can do that much. My last flute developed a crack in the headjoint which fortunately did not affect its playability in any way. Nevertheless, upon selling it, I felt its market value had dropped, but by how much? I don't follow the market, so I had to go by intuition and context. Selling as I was to a good friend and excellent player who'd never had a really decent flute and certainly deserved one if anyone did, I made the decision to let it go at half the price I paid. I don't know if this was a reduction of unnecessary proportions, but taking all things into account - including my alterations to a couple of key touches, and my friend's tight financial position - I thought it was a reasonable amount, and the right thing to do.

[roj]

Speaking of cracks, a while back I was searching the database for "how-to's" on fixing or at least (as bepoq mentioned) stabilizing a crack, but didn't find much. If anyone has a link, I'd like to investigate.

[an seanduine]

Really, Jem Hammond's Facebook page is the repository you seek.
Bob

[bepoq]

not much in the way of replies on the original question. Don't any of the flute collectors/dealers on here have any thoughts? (I am absolutely not trying to sell either of these by the way)

is a bump

B

[AaronFW]

not much in the way of replies on the original question.

I didn't reply because I didn't know how much I actually have to contribute.

I am buying a flute from Terry McGee because it is my understanding that he has tried to reduce the likeliness of cracking with his flutes in light of why flutes generally crack. (There are other reasons I am buying a flute from him, but that is a major one.)

As a consumer, I don't really know what to think about flutes with past cracks or current cracks. In general, I myself would stay away from flutes with cracks, but deep down inside I know they don't really make a substantial difference in playability.

(I have some anthropology background too; so here is my demographic information too. I am a male American, 29 years old.)

[LewisC]

OK, how about a debatable starting point of 20% reduction in sale value.

That would be $1K on a $5K instrument. The reduction in value should be greater than the repair cost since there are some buyers who would consider even a fixed crack to reduce the value.

I think the answer to your problem has a couple of dimensions to it in that (1) valuation of the instrument just before the crack occurred would need to be determined, and (2) if there were a possibility that the insurer could argue that your behavior contributed to the crack.

Just wondering about this....
L

[LewisC]

More thoughts. If the crack runs through the embouchure, you can argue the flute is unplayable and the reduction would be higher, and the fix potentially riskier. If it runs through the back of the head the insurer would argue it is cosmetic and the reduction would be less.

If the headjoint is unlined then any crack is worse, and a higher reduction is needed.

There are probably lots of ebay-type data point that would be hard to collect, but flutes with seriously cracked headjoints seem to sell for greatly reduced prices.

All the best on the fix and best result.
L

[jim stone]

Often a crack does not much affect the price of a top-rank flute.
If one can say that the track is in an innocuous place, that it has
been expertly repaired and has been stable for a long time, you can
take a little off but often people don't take much. Of course with
antique flutes a barrel crack, say, is par for the course and again
needn't much affect the sale price. I say this because I've watched
lots of ads and that's how it often goes.

[Steampacket]

What Jim Stone said.

Regarding "top level" flutes I don't think a cracked head joint has to necessary reduce the value of a flute.
Cracked head joints can be fixed and stabilised by a competent woodwind repairer. Even a cracked patent head joint can be repaired by a woodwind repairer who is confident enough to take on the task. I think when buying a 120+ year old Rudall simple system flute, then a crack, or repaired crack, somewhere on the flute, is usually to be expected and not a big deal if the flute plays well.

Also since 2008/9 you can buy quality Victorian simple system flutes for very reasonable prices these days. I have two patent head R&R flutes with unrepaired, cracked, head joints. Both play well after a professional repad and a couple of new key springs. I paid around 130 euros for a couple of new springs, a complete repad, and a cracked head joint repair for a R&R flute. The flute with an extra patent head joint cost £1200 to buy.

I don't think that a professionally repaired head joint on a Wilkes, Olwell, Grinter, Hamilton, etc. or Rudall for that matter, would devalue the flute.

However if you were to sell the flute unrepaired you'd probably have to allow for the cost of the necessary repair when selling and price accordingly.

[Loren]

I tend to disagree with Jim and Steampacket, who seem to be commenting on what they personally feel or believe should be the case (subjective), rather than what actually happens in the market: Used Top maker’s flutes (old and new) tend to sell for significantly less when they have cracks. Particularly if the HJ, sockets, tenons or key blocks are cracked. Dollar amount? Hard to say without looking back at lots of sales, and the differences right now will likely be different than during the flute craze of 10-20 years ago. Perhaps Lewis’ idea of a percentage makes some sense, but still it will very from maker to maker and buyer to buyer.

Going from memory (somewhat objective?) it seems that over the years in demand makers’ flutes bring bring $300-$1000 less than similar uncracked flutes - amount largely varying by the original price price of the flute, it’s general desirability, plus the size and location of any cracks. Professionally repaired cracks obviously affect the price less than I repaired or home “stabilized” cracks.

From my view, your Wilkes Bb is worth $800-$1000 less with the crack. If Chris had repaired the crack, the value would it would lose only $200-$500 in value BUT, it’s a Wilkes, and a Bb, and with keys... such an outlier that there will usually be someone willing to pay at least what you originally paid. Not the norm.

Old cracked R&R’s are plentiful enough and not so much in demand these days that I do think an uncracked used R&R’s must be selling for $800-$1000 or more than those with even professionally repaired cracks. If I’m wrong here, I’m sure Jem, D.M., and steampacket will set me straight as I don’t actively follow all R&R sales that closely at present.

[Holmes]

My tendency when dealing with cracks to a head joint or barrel is to make another head/barrel for the said flute. The repaired original can be kept too.

I have not come across a flute that isn't improved in this way, largely due to the fact that most makers can cut a better embouchure these days.
CW might like the opportunity to repair his Bb, it irritates any maker to have their wares being marred by a crack and makers are usually keen to either make a new or repair the old.

It means you have to invest a little but this might preserve the eventual value, musical and monitory, of your beloved flutes

H

https://soundcloud.com/holmesflute/temp ... ood-guitar